Athletics Nation

THIS POST IS OFFENSIVE.

im ok with that

Okay, does that mean you think we shouldn't refer to Sweeney as "raccoon" any more?

Nick - August 23, 2009 reply

Im more ok with that

calling homers “wap a pap” is IMO not cool. But Im a big believer in the language is truth theory of rhetoric which is why I care about these things.

I also think its about being responsive to the community. If a bunch of people find it offensive bringing it to the front page two days later doesn’t really seem like respecting those people.

hmmm.

While I understand where you’re coming from, what about the 28 people who recommended the original post? It’s not exactly “speaking for the community” when we listen to the voice of 12 and ignore the voice of 28.

That said, you’ve asked and not demanded and been very cool about something that obviously bothers you, so on a personal basis, I’ll stop referring to that post.

Leopold Bloom - August 23, 2009 reply

Well I really appreciate the changing of the title

Well I would argue that the effect of using language to reinforce stereotypes on the victims of genocide outweighs the value that people gain by enjoying that process. There is of course always a good argument to be made for humor breaking down societal misconceptions and mocking people that hold certain attitudes (the Colbert Report and conservatism for example), however I don’t see that as being applicable to that case. If think that that is not an appropriate evaluation I am more than open to hearing that case. As I said above, I am a firm believer that the way we construct language is the way we construct truth in our minds so that comments like wap a pap, or the Dan White comment have serious implications, if allowed to proliferate, which is why I have objected to them when they have been written.

Unfortunately for me, I've been fielding dozens of emails in the last hour

from readers strongly objecting to the word “beat” in the headline because it’s insensitive towards victims of domestic violence. I almost went with “outlast,” but I just didn’t want to risk hearing from the premature ejaculators.

I am offended by beat too

for reasons I refuse to go into at this juncture.

You just kinda want to be alone right now?

You think

I could borrow Cindi for a minute?

Only a minute? Bobby Crosby, is that you?

Now you have

REALLY offended me.

You might want to try defeat instead then.

I would argue that the concept of defeating someone in a contest predates the concept of domestic violence and is a more common usage, but if you feel that it is offensive you might want to not write it.

No, I tried "defeat" once and got a slew of irate emails

from ancestors of the Confederacy.

And really, both teams were winners.

no sense in make a value judgement based on the game.

As were the North and the South

(except the South).

have you checked recently?

Im ok with deligitimizing the confederacy

Im not sure why you feel the need to go on this belittling of people that feel that wap a pap is a racist statement.

I'm just trying to show the absurdity of how ANYTHING

might offend someone. Heck, you took me seriously on “beat” — that it would be reasonable for me not to use that word on a sports blog because it could offend someone. As bad as insensitivity is — and I believe it is bad — political correctness ain’t much better.

You know this joke? :

“How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?”
“How many?”
“That’s NOT FUNNY.”

Just as one can overdo the insensitivity, one can overdo the political correctness, too. Confucius say: It takes two for someone to offend someone else. (Or is “Confucius say” too insensitive to the Chinese? See…it never ends. I guess I’ll have to consult with the “PC nazis” — whoops, just offended the Jews…) And on and on and on…

I'm illiterate and I'm offending by you using the written word.

Kallus - August 23, 2009 reply

"offended"

like I said, I’m illiterate

Kallus - August 23, 2009 reply

It's ok, because I'm blind -- and find it

shocking that you would type a message when you know that some people can’t see.

That reminds me of a true story years ago, when my family was having dinner and a solicitor called at dinner. My mom answered the phone and the person asked if she would be willing to do a walkathon to raise money for some cause or other. My mom replied, “What is this, a cruel joke?” The person said no, and my mom continued in a dramatic voice, “You know very well I’ve been confined to a wheelchair all my life!” (she isn’t) After the solicitor started blubbering an apology, my mom laughed and said she was kidding, but please don’t call people during dinner.

Oh, I see.

Shit! Sorry Nico. Didn’t mean it that way!

Kallus - August 23, 2009 reply

I'm not actually blind.

Where’d you go? Hello?

Or you could just not make comments about groups of people

If those jokes surpass the abilities of your intelligence and wit, I am sorry.

Does it improve your argument to say Confucius says which is a long standing insult of Chinese people, or to trivialize people that murdered 6 million jews, gays, gypsies and other people the Hitler found undesirable by comparing them to people that would like you to be more conscious about your diction? So why would you do those things?

I am not being politically correct, rather I recognize that together we form a social construct with the language we use. By using language that ingrains prejudice and hate we create a truth in which those prejudices are the basis for our reality.

It was 6 million or so jews, five million gays, gypsies, Slavs, communists, intelligentsia, and everyone else. 11 million total.

Bah, quibble begin and end tags didn’t work. Fail.

quibble accepted, the 6 was what I remembered...

I knew I should have looked it up first.

"Confucius say"

Is that really a “long standing insult of Chinese people”? I’m half Chinese, and I don’t find it insulting at all. I do find it stupid, and I suppose that on that basis you could call it “offensive”, but only because it’s stupid and not because it’s racist or anything like that.

If your goal is to ban all stupidity from human discourse, well, good luck with that. I’m not sure that your current campaign is furthering that goal.

Witness the fact that I'm still here.

If you look at things such as Have Gun Will Travel

and other cultural works of the 50s it is often used to mock people of Chinese ancestry.

Banning stupidity,while theoretically awesome, is something that I realized was futile and gave up on a long time ago.

sigh. Political Correctness

or as I like to call it.. the Pussification of America.

Fuck yeah

I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks there's

a middle ground here.

I thought the Tonto post was dumb, and I’m glad Nico changed the title of this post so that the “much lots of” crude grammar stereotyping wasn’t so prominent.

On the other hand, I don’t have a problem with saying “wap-a-pap”. I think it’s kind of cute. If I hadn’t seen the background story I never would have known “wap-a-pap” had anything to do with caricaturing Native Americans. I’d never even heard the word before.

STOP BEING SENSIBLE!!!

I had never heard “wap-a-pap” before either and think it’s kind of cute, and thought it would be nice to give a one-time send up to a 28-times-over recommended fanpost that was followed by a 4-HR game.

Other than that, I don’t have strong feelings one way or the other except to say that this site will never be made to be entirely PC as long as I’m around, and I’m not planning to go anywhere anytime especially soon, so…Welcome to Cheers, I’m Carla, enjoy your day you stupid git.

I think that the fact the whoever wrote and posted the original felt the need to do so under another assumed

name is indicative of the fact that there’s something very uncomfortable about the whole affair. I’d not been back to the fanpost since reading it when it first went up, so I was unaware that you’d posted an objection. But I very much agree with what you’re saying.

bobnothing - August 23, 2009 reply

I merely supported those who did

I am much more vigilant when it comes to homophobic comments, because they touch close to home in addition to being wrong. One of my hobbies is old time radio and I grew up listening to the Lone Ranger among other westerns. If you listen to them it is very clear the racism that was rampant in the 1950s. I know several first people who have to deal with this stuff and I just don’t think that it belongs.

What bothers me even more

(and I’m with you on avoiding this sort of thing when a fairly substantial portion of the community considers it racist or offensive) is that the leader of the blog is taking your complaint, as non-confrontational and polite as it is, so lightly.

DMOAS - August 23, 2009 reply

How so?

He clearly doesn’t agree with the complaint, which is his prerogative. The only comment I see that seems out of bounds in the whole exchange is DFA directly insulting Nico’s intelligence.

jeepers - August 23, 2009 via mobile reply

I did no such thing

I merely said that those who resort to making jokes at the expense of entire groups of people who have historically been oppressed is the lowest form of humor and that I believe that both AN and Nico are better than that.

I started this in a non confrontational way. Nico proceeded to compare my request to not repeat what even the author admits was a beyond the pail failed attempt at ethnic stereotype humor with wanting to not offend Confederate soldiers families. I don’t see myself as the aggressor in this conversation.

You need an editor

The less words, the better the comment.

1) Don’t kid yourself. The only thing inaccurate about what I said was terming your insult “direct” instead of “passive aggressive,” and if you can’t admit that’s what it was, you’re not being honest with yourself.

2) Just because your comment wasn’t treated with seriousness doesn’t mean it wasn’t taken seriously. The lack of seriousness may have been frustrating, but in the end, an answer was given; it just happened to not be the one you wanted. There wasn’t any “aggression” in the conversation until you started to question intelligence.

jeepers - August 23, 2009 via mobile reply

Ill acept that I need an editor and #1

but I didn’t directly insult Nico’s intelligence. Saying that if you cant come up with jokes that don’t insult oppressed minorities you lack wit and intelligence is something that Im fine with and stand by. Its a if the shoe fits kinda thing.

That being said there is plenty of Nico’s humor that is quite funny. I just wish he would stay out of the weeds more often.

Fair enough

jeepers - August 23, 2009 via mobile reply

I agree with all that

And for the record, I didn’t find that comment insulting at all. I’ll try to stay out of the weeds more often if you’ll stop trying to mow the lawn every day. OK? OK. Life is good.

Honestly when you changed the heading I was done

and thanked you until you made your "but I cant use "beat"" comment.

I really had no desire to have this long ass conversation but you didn’t just leave it alone.

Well consider this:

1. I changed the heading to the most boring-ass headline I’ve ever written for AN, one so dull even I don’t want to read AN when I see it.

2. I didn’t write the Tonto fanpost. It was given 28 recommendations and was the most recommended fanpost on AN. I gave it a send-up in the title to my recap as a one-time thing, and then wrote an entirely straight-up recap with no more references to anything but the game. Yet it still manages to become the latest in your “booklet o’ nicomplaints.”

IM4Oakgal puts it perfectly below. Your crusades threaten to bully me into writing only safe, watered down headlines, captions, and verbage, and to censor fanposts from others like the Tonto one that a lot of readers really liked (and some didn’t).

I don’t respond well to bullying. When you tell a teenager “Don’t take drugs” it makes them want to even more. Similarly, every time you go on another crusade, it just makes me want to channel “Mad TV” and “Family Guy” more.

Sure I’ll “try to be more careful” — though as I’ve tried to explain, you can pretty offend anyone with anything, and usually will — but here’s some advice from someone 19 years your senior: If you want someone to write safer material, and respond to complaints with more concern, try shutting up for a day about it.

Dude you wrote that Cust and Sweeney were doing a wap a pap dance

Which is pretty offensive in itself, considering its mocking of Native American religious practices an thats hardly just using someone elses language from the fanpost. I was suggesting that you take into about the 25% by recs of people that found that post racist because bringing the language to the front page would inherently ingrain it in AN parlance. Like I said if you had changed the title and language like you did and left it, it would have gone in the wow Nico actually took my request seriously, thats awesome pile, rather than you being ridiculous.

Im sorry that I am trying to deprive you of the forms of humor that are homophobia, racism, and trivializing rape. Stay away from those things and I won’t get offended, I guarantee it. Like I said if you can’t find anything funny to say without using one of those categories you probably shouldn’t be writing.

Look, Ive tried to deal with you on this in an adult manner and you routinely are insulting and dismissive. If you would prefer, I can just get enough people to flag your comments till some kind of disciplinary action occurs.

Yeah, but is Bob Geren a good manager?

franks a lot - August 24, 2009 reply

No

I would REALLY prefer that, actually

It’s the degrading of threads into conversations like this that irritate me. Please use the flagging system and let the system work. There is no preferential treatment on AN and I trust that the mods will judge any flag independent of who the user, or complainer, may be.

Just be careful what you wish for, because if I get myself banned there won’t be any game threads or recaps on the weekends. I kid, I kid — Cindi would take over.

Woooh there buddy

He asked. You choose to change it. All you had to do at that point was say something like “I make no promises, but I’ll try to keep that in mind next time” or something to that effect and it would have been over. No giant discussion, no BS.

Instead you decided to crack a joke at a request that was hardly “bullying”, hardly “censoring” you in any way. DFA wasn’t the only one who took exception to it and he respectfully with the 12+ people who recommended that the comment in that same thread thought it was insulting/demeaning/racist (which that kind “comment recommending” never happens btw) in mind, choose to say something.

Look, I know you like to joke around a lot. It’s your thing, particularly on Current AN-events. You weren’t trying to turn this into an issue, you were just doing your traditional shout out to it. It’s part of what I like about you, you stay informed about the community at large. But from what I saw, you’re also the one who drove this to where it went. You can blame DFA for your actions all you want, but this was avoidable by simply gritting your teeth and turning the other cheek instead of going all Rev on him which is what you tend to do when these sorts of issues come up.

Fair enough

I should add that

comparing me to the Rev, however well deserved, hurts my soul. {grits teeth}

From my POV

it seems to me that DFA is constantly picking at Nico…looking for things to bitch about. It gets old and is annoying IMO. He needs to learn a little restraint. I know I don’t like his little crusade and I find it an immature way to conduct himself on the blog. Nico endures a lot of criticism here on this blog that he’s worked so hard on over the years…most people would have told DFA to STFU long ago. Nico I give ya props for being so reasonable.

IM4Oakgal - August 24, 2009 reply

Thanks. I'll cop to a poor decision

not to just change the headline and move on, as DMOAS correctly points out would have been the right move.

But when I’m constantly badgered and targeted, then like most humans I’m just less likely to think clearly and be my “best self” in response — anyway, I appreciate your support. I love this blog, I love the A’s, and I appreciate this community.

Turning the other cheek doesn't

always work when someone is seeking your attention. Sometimes you have to say something to correct a problem. DFA is a smart guy…if he is a wise person he will spend more time writing his interesting fact-filled articles and less time tugging at your coat tails.

IM4Oakgal - August 24, 2009 reply

Smart and wise two different beasts are

(Luckily, I happen to be neither so it’s not an issue.)

I won't speak to history

But the way it was addressed in this particular thread was polite and innocent enough by DFA. If you want to take it as “another poke”, well, can’t stop that. But if you’re not going to turn the other cheek, I’d simply suggest choosing a better moment to do so. But the issue is finally dead and Nico did cop to it.

DMOAS - August 25, 2009 reply

Yeah this isn't the first time

basically when I complained about the comment about Dan White’s good aim he compared it to Monty Python and suggested that it was progressive humor. He mocked the person that pointed out the fairy caption, and the person that asked him to stop the Brett Wallace fat jokes, in addition to me.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, especially the parts about

about language and consciousness.

But I disagree with your ultimate point about avoiding potentially offensive comments.

Why? Because racism, sexism, homophobia etc. do exist no matter how much it sucks, and getting offended on behalf of others does nothing to change this, but rather reifies the differences caused by prejudices by limiting the discourse surrounding them.

I also find it strange that you propose one form of ignorance-based humor – the Colbert Report – is acceptable, while others are not. To me Colbert simply reiterates all the things I hate about cable news. Sure there’s some irony involved – but irony alone adds nothing to the conversation in terms of new ideas.

Someone brought up Sherman Alexie on the Tonto thread. Alexie is probably my favorite author of the last fifteen years or so. In college I TA’d a course where we read the Lone Ranger and Tonto Fistfight in Heaven, and Mr. Alexie was nice enough to visit for a guest lecture. On the day he was to speak, a fellow Spokane Indian, whose name I can’t recall, showed up to protest what he viewed as Mr. Alexie’s portrayal of their common race as a bunch of drunk, ill-educated, lower class, reservationists (Alexie himself is quick to take issue with the notion of Native Americans as casino profiteers).

Alexie’s writing is as much about humor as it is about hopelessness and despair. Its the coexistence of the contradictions that makes it great. Carl Jung referred to humor as a defence mechanism – laughter as a means subjugating sadness. I think this is why when I get together in a bar with some gay friends I can expect to hear a lot of gay jokes. Even though said friends are pretty open-minded and non-judmental, there is a desire to commiserate, to be vulnerable and self-deprecating among the people one considers true friends.

One of the things I like about AN is its a great place to get my A’s fix without being exposed to the machoistic drunken yelling and attacks which all to often accompany the experience of being a sports fan. I saw the Tonto post as a quirky and original way to discuss the A’s, one that found a new language for discussing the future of our team – a language that didn’t involve the stats/projections/armchair-scout categories of evaluation which are most common around here, and I appreciated the attempt to make something as dry as sports writing more creative and prosaic.

If you really think the greatest challenge facing Native Americans is the misconception that they don’t understand how to use articles, then I could see why you might think that post was offensive, but you’d be wrong – there are far greater injustices.

As someone who is offended by a lot of things, nothing offends me more than when people are offended on behalf of others: this is the most passive, non-constructive way of dealing with the issue – it involves no direct action to correct the problem but rather assumes we should acknowledge the subjective proclivities of others for the sake of politeness, even when this politeness merely reifies the status quo. Even homophobes get indignant about what they somehow view as prejudice against homophobia.

Several people have inferred the Tonto post is at least borderline racist, but no one has specifically mentioned what is racist about it. I would be interested to hear exactly what it is, although maybe that’s not allowed around here. Sorry if this post is going too far.

Aufheben - August 24, 2009 reply

Not so strange

I also find it strange that you propose one form of ignorance-based humor – the Colbert Report – is acceptable, while others are not.

I don’t want to get political, so I won’t delve into this any further than to say that people who think the Colbert Report is funny always defend it, regardless of how sensitive they may be of other crude political humor.

The comment that jumped out at me is where DFA said he was OK with “delegitimizing the Confederacy”. That’s worded in a way that he could mean only that he’d make the legal case that secession was an unlawful act, so I’ll take it on faith that that’s what he meant, but it reminds me how many people think that poor white people from the South are fair game for ridicule even while most other groups aren’t.

I like plenty of crude political humor

Nico’s Chappaquiddick joke for example was pretty funny. I also think that target and context matters. Colbert’s context is makes his show satirical, where as the context of a sports blog does not lend itself to a context that effectively delves into these issues.

I don’t think its fair to lump me in with people making fun of poor southern white people since you correctly point out what I meant.

Yet someone objected to the Chappaquiddick joke

while a lesbian commented that she thought the “fairies” caption was hilarious. You see the problem? I can’t check with you, or every reader, to see whether something “not so safe” works for you or not, so I have two choices: Never take risks, or take risks and sometimes offend someone.

And pointing to an example we can both agree crossed a line is like saying that if a 3Bman takes a chance and throws home and gets the runner 9 times out of 10, the 10th one was a mistake. You have to throw to get the other 9. Maybe on that Chappaquiddick day, Kennedy threw to 1B because he knew Geren would have complained on his blog if he had thrown home unsuccessfully and he didn’t want to deal with it.

Or you could do a third option.

do exactly what Emmett did above or Blicks did when I asked her/him to not use rape in a sports context, “Hey I was trying to be funny but I see how that could be taken that way. I will be more cognizant in the future, my bad.” rather than attack people that think your humor crossed the line.

Damn, dude, just let it go already.

Your point has been made multiple times now.

I can't remember.

Did the A’s win yesterday? Against a team fighting for their playoff lives?

Yes? Oh, good. I thought I imagined it.

67MARQUEZ - August 24, 2009 reply

Who are the A's?

I don't know but I'm heading over to mlb.com to find out.

I love this comment, Aufheben

Love the signature!!!

MMunoz33 - August 24, 2009 reply

He has a wife, you know.

iglew - August 25, 2009 reply

I think this is an excellent comment

I wanted to address a few points.

I also find it strange that you propose one form of ignorance-based humor – the Colbert Report – is acceptable, while others are not.

Generally Im I like satire which Colbert qualifies as and I don’t think that the Tonto post did. The key distinction I think is context. The Tonto post didn’t have any context that would lead you to believe that there is more between the lines, Colbert and other successful satire does. Satire is best when it targets the elites, whether is be media elites, political elites, or social elites, not when it targets groups that are far from power.

If you really think the greatest challenge facing Native Americans is the misconception that they don’t understand how to use articles, then I could see why you might think that post was offensive, but you’d be wrong – there are far greater injustices.

No I am well aware that it isn’t even close to the biggest concern. Chronic poverty, lack of education, toxic mining operations, destruction of natural resources by others, and alcoholism all are significant issues that affect first peoples and are far far more important. However the AIM’s 20 point plan for peace did call for the end of sports teams using Native Americans as mascots and this could be seen as an extension of that. Additionally, just because there are more harmful things happening doesn’t mean that stopping one isn’t a good idea.

As someone who is offended by a lot of things, nothing offends me more than when people are offended on behalf of others: this is the most passive, non-constructive way of dealing with the issue – it involves no direct action to correct the problem but rather assumes we should acknowledge the subjective proclivities of others for the sake of politeness, even when this politeness merely reifies the status quo. Even homophobes get indignant about what they somehow view as prejudice against homophobia.

That.

+ 1,000,000

jeepers - August 24, 2009 via mobile reply

i know i come late to this

but i’d like to throw in this thought: maybe community isn’t about majority rule. (i mean, nothing in the word itself suggests rule, much less majority.) the word seems to mean holding something in common with others, which i take to mean sharing life with others—you know… i’m here and you’re here, let’s both of us talk about being here.

so community seems to take a different tact, and fulfill a different need, than competition-based political decision-making and theories of what’s fair versus what’s right versus what’s good and for how many of whom. community’s not so much about whose voice gets to be heard loudest and then written as law or guideline. it’s about the urge, way before decision-making, to share with others. given that, that we’re here out of an urge to share, if even 1 person is hurt by something we say/do, and we still want that person to commune with us, wouldn’t we voluntarily make sure to avoid what hurts that person? and isn’t it true we want to avoid hurting them, even if we don’t understand how exactly it hurts them, but just because it does? i hope so.

AV - August 24, 2009 reply

Very well stated

I basically agree with you on the Tonto post

I didn’t think it was as funny as lots of other people did, and considering the nature of the humor (especially since the Tonto stuff seemed unconnected to anything related to the A’s), I’d be happier not riffing on it much.

Now, that being said…wap-a-pap and the sort of pidjin English stuff is specific, ethnic humor. Raccoons aren’t. During the last gamethread I was on (Friday night) I posted a bunch of pix of raccoons when Sweeney was up, and I’d kinda like to be able to do that in the future. It’s not like Sweeney has another nickname that everyone likes (‘Swooney’ seems to have bitten the dust) The problem is that if the name sticks, people will ask, “Why is Sweeney called ‘raccoon’, anyway?” (just like they ask about Unicorn) and it would be a bit uncomfortable to say, “Well, there was this post that a whole lot of people were really uncomfortable with because they felt it was kind of demeaning to Native Americans…”

Nick - August 23, 2009 reply

we could just tell them that it's easy to envision him picking through your garbage.

Leopold Bloom - August 23, 2009 reply

Wouldn't that make Marshall the raccoon?

Or maybe we can imagine Marshall rocking your hatchback back and forth in a campground parking lot, until he breaks through the window and can get at the box of Fruit Loops inside.

So, that leaves Sweeney as the raccoon, and Marshall as the black bear.

Nick - August 23, 2009 reply

I'm offended

I pick through your recyclables for bottles and cans. I then finagle this CRV-booty into a small fortune during these hard economic times.

But I do observe your right to free speech.

Rock and Roll, baby. Freedom of speech

franks a lot - August 24, 2009 reply

I ll defer to your judgement on that one

Nicknaming someone after an animal doesn’t strike me as being an inherent swipe against a group of people, and raccoon isn’t going to be one of the battles I pick.

Link to your images and say it started there.

DMOAS - August 23, 2009 reply

Do I have to slog through the Tonto post

to find out why Sweeney is suddenly nicknamed Raccoon? I’m not really getting much of a racconish vibe from Sweeney, I have to admit.

Faust - August 23, 2009 reply

In brief:

Tonto was making animal metaphors. Jack Cust, who hits big home runs, is like a bear. Rajai Davis, who runs fast, is like a squirrel. Tonto approved of both types of players. He didn’t care so much for Sweeney, who was neither bear nor squirrel, but more like a raccoon.

As the "author" (term used lightly) of the Tonto thing

I thought I’d apologize to anyone who was offended by it, and admit it was a slip of judgement and probably shouldn’t have been done in the first place.

I’m just glad I didn’t say Rajai Davis is fast like a Raccoon going up a tree. Now that would have been bad!

But, that will probably be Tonto’s debut and finale, just because I don’t want any percentage of A’s fans to be offended.

If I could find a way to offend only LAAAA fans, I’d do it though.

Emmett89 - August 23, 2009 reply

I myself took no offense from it whatsoever

Look, If someone else if offended, then I cannot change that. They spoke their mind on it as they are entitled to do if they wish.

I think some people are a little thin skinned. For example, I am white Anglo-Saxon (English-Irish) Protestant. Do I give a shit if someone calls me an Irish Cracker. No not all all. I could care less really.

I am sure your post was done with good intentions and for humorous purposes and was not meant to offend anyone in anyway.

Like I said, I am not offended by it. Those that are, have the right to speak up about it which they have.

Just my 2 cents on the whole thing. Blown a little out of proportion IMO.

BTW: As far as I am concerned you can say whatever you want to the slegnA fans. I will be going onde day this weekend and I am sure I will.

Trainman - August 23, 2009 reply

I know this is getting horribly off-topic, even by gamethread standards (which this isn’t)…but I can’t help but wonder, how do you think a black person would feel if you called them the n word? What about a gay person and the f bomb? (No, the other one.)

Thank you

Everyone who tries to be funny at some point crosses the line. It is those who can accept it and own up to it who are bigger people, and part of the solution, rather than the problem.

Not to worry

It wasn’t offensive. I think you should do Ricky Ricardo next.

jeepers - August 23, 2009 via mobile reply

Or Ralph Cramden.

Flip a coin, really.

jeepers - August 23, 2009 via mobile reply

Good Win

It was nice seeing Cust come alive. Tomko has looked solid as well. Nice way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

KCa's - August 23, 2009 reply

What a lovely day to be at the park.

I needed a little red wagon to drag my butt there, but so worth it! I called both that first Cust bomb and Powell’s 2nd HR. It was time for both. Thanks, boys!

lynnzgal - August 23, 2009 reply

Hooray for 4-homer games and back-to-back wins.

Me and Brit were there, too.

What 67M jinx, hmm? ;-)

67MARQUEZ - August 23, 2009 reply

That Brit has some strong ass mojo!

;-)

lynnzgal - August 23, 2009 reply

I'm 3-0 this year

You being at a game with my presence has canceled out your negative jinx (for the time being).

doctorK - August 23, 2009 reply

{invites to doctorK to my remaining games}

Credit goes to my “lucky” hat too. I hadn’t worn it all season until last night (and today).

67MARQUEZ - August 23, 2009 reply

KEEP wearing it - I say

BERRYJO - August 23, 2009 reply

Your hat is screwing up our top 5 draft pick

Stop it!

is it possible that the Baseball Gods just don't recognize you in it?

Leopold Bloom - August 23, 2009 reply

Hi baby.

Thanks again for the shrimp and the scallops. Flat out fucking AWESOME.

Hi sweets!

You’re welcome, glad you enjoyed. Thanks for bringing the BAG and for the brats and corn. I chowed!

lynnzgal - August 23, 2009 reply

I do what I can.

Barton

Great defensive play in the ninth, but, he is hitting under .150. How can we use him for anything other than a defensive replacement?

Graybeard - August 23, 2009 reply

Yes

His stats this year wreak of a small sample size as his walk rate and his ISO are both good. Now if he was hitting .150 pts higher he would be a very good offensive player. His LD and FB rate suggest to me that he could be pressing and trying to hit balls out rather than just putting a good swing on the ball.

It's worth noting that if he'd had just three more hits, he'd have an average of around .300

bobnothing - August 23, 2009 reply

Brett Tomko magic pixie dust stikes again

walk off bunt - August 23, 2009 reply

I'm expecting the bottom to fall out

the first time he pitches in another park. Until then I am a Brett Tomko fan.

;)

Powell for DH!

How come this guy does not play more? Yeah, I know, the whole Zooks thing, but Powell is pretty good! Defense too! He should play some games.

streetfan - August 23, 2009 reply

because he needs two hits to from first to second

And then would go on the DL.

not sure if he would be DL'd

he would be day to day for two weeks leaving the A’s with a 2 person bench.

Tyson Ross pitched a gem tonight:

7 IP, 2 hits, 0 ER, 2 BB, 4 K.

On the flip side, Wallace and Cardenas had matching 0 for 4 days for the Rivercats.

0-4?

Can we officailly call Beane a total loser. He cannot trade for shit.

Crumbliss was promoted to Kane County apparently, as he played in tonights game. Nice to see him get promoted.

Orodawg - August 23, 2009 reply

Yep

And Stassi was promoted to Vancouver to fill his roster spot. Nice to see the high school kid go directly to SS A ball.

CaliforniaJag - August 23, 2009 reply

[donaldson works out at third]

Interestingly enough I think he has equal value at 3b as behind the plate

for a long explanation why my latest prospect list gives you the full run down, but he was a good 3bman in college and should be average there in the long run.

That is a good piece

thanks appreciate that.

I think PETA is going to protest AN because of this recap title.

It’s advocating animal cruelty, after all.

Im ok with anthropocentrism

Look, if we weren't mean to eat animals

THEY WOULD NOT BE MADE OUT OF DELICIOUS MEAT.

That's a pretty funny typo, mikev!

The 'T' is silent!

I'm sorry,

but having someone call the Tonto post racism just bums me out. Seriously guys? Seriously? Racism is only racism if you CHOOSE to be offended by it. The post wasn’t posted to be racism; it was posted to be a joke. It’s based on a stereotype. Stereotypes aren’t insults; they’re FUNNY, usually because they’re rooted in truth. Black people DO enjoy eating fried chicken and watermelon. Mexicans DO eat rice and beans a lot. From my experience, Asian people usually ARE good at math. And there are plenty of Native Americans who speak without the use of proper English. It just makes me sad that some people feel the need to be insulted at a humerous stereotype not intended to offend anyone in the least.

Follow-up question: if I made a post saying “LOL Amish people don’t know how to use technology!”, would I get blasted for being insensitive?

CaliforniaJag - August 23, 2009 reply

Racism is only racism if you CHOOSE to be offended by it.

Um…no.

harenshair - August 24, 2009 reply

If I were black, and went up to another black person and said “what’s up nigga?”, they would likely just say “what’s up?” back to me. However, the fact that I’m white means I’d probably get my ass kicked. This is because the person receiving the comment from me would have taken it as an insult instead of as a nickname, like he would have if I were black. This is, to put it bluntly, retarded. I know black people who have no problem with their white friends calling them “nigga”. It all depends on how the person HEARING the comment reacts to it. If I call a Mexican guy a beaner, and he says “lol yep, love them beans!”, it’s not an insult, it’s just a stereotype/nickname. If the guy flips out, it’s racism. It’s based on how it’s received, which is based on how you CHOOSE to receive comments. If I flip you off, obviously I’m mad, but if you just go “hey cool, a finger!” the insult means nothing. I maintain: it is only racism if the group on the receiving ends chooses to be offended by it. There are countless examples. Don’t disagree with my post without any counterargument to back up your position.

I think you're reading it backwards

The friend who doesn’t mind you saying that knows you, knows your intentions, knows your meaning. Your friend relies on what he/she knows about you to recognize that you’re intent is not to be racist, just friendly, and accepts what you said in the vain you intended.

The person who you’ve never met doesn’t. They base in on their own personal history, their own person experience, and what they’ve been taught. A random guy who comes up to them ignorant enough to throw those comments around is simply likely to think the worst in you, specifically because this is all they know of you and this is the first impression you chose to make. Your intentions are dismissed and are replaced by the cold, true meaning of the words you chose to use and not the playful, ironic sense you intended. Some people have a brutal experiences with racism and take it personally while others with little to no experience might not.

Context is very important in these sort of things. Yes, there is some truth that racist is in the eye of the beholder, but it’s also very much built around historical actions that condemned or discriminated against a race. Whether you choose to take umbrage with something doesn’t mean the intent behind something wasn’t racist.

Here's what I wonder -- and I just bring it up out of intellectual curiosity:

Where do you place in this the many comedic groups that are known to be highly progressive/liberal and which routinely use stereotypes/political incorrectness to be humorous?

Examples would include Monty Python (featuring openly gay cast member Graham Chapman spoofing homosexuality and homophobia in numerous sketches), In Living Color, Mad TV, Family Guy & American Dad, Avenue Q, and so on.

As this discussion is coming up, I find this interesting — maybe partly because I am in that group but also just because I think it’s an interesting question. Where repeated pattern this fall in the context of prejudice, humor, stereotyping, progressiveness, etc.?

Ironically

I typically love those shows. Those typically are known and built on that kind of satire (as are you) and so they’re like the “buddy you know” that you choose to laugh with. I do ascribe to the rule of thumb “if it’s funny, it’s not racist”. But those shows have to walk the thin line of “we may go too far and we need to be ready to apologize, but not necessarily stop” if we do.

For the record, while I didn’t see the original post and/or remember it, I viewed it as an attempt at a pop-AN shout out to those who enjoyed the thread and there was nothing necessarily wrong with it. Just like there was nothing wrong with someone stepping up and saying, “hey, maybe we shouldn’t perpetuate this particular one” and you shrugging your shoulders and saying “sorry. I’ll keep that in mind next time” and moving on. I’m really not a fan of censorship especially if when you’re willing to accept the criticism/consequences that are typically unpredictable afterward.

DMOAS - August 25, 2009 reply

Some statements are so absurd that they are their own counterargument

See the recent Barney Frank response to the town hall woman.

DMOAS has already made most of the argument, but basically you are cherrypicking specific situations which are heavily influenced by context to make your argument. It is beyond misleading to say that stereotypes are only hurtful if the person at whom they are directed is sensitive enough to take them as such. You have a deeper relationship with your friends than with the general population, so OF COURSE there’s a shift in what you can and cannot say. There’s a greater understanding of sensitivities, and there’s a greater understanding of intent.

Unless you know for damn sure exactly who you’re talking to, and how they’re going to take it, you don’t further negative stereotypes about a group of people. Even “positive” stereotypes, like ‘Asians are good at math’ have been shown to have negative implications. It sure as hell isn’t as simple as somebody “choosing” to be offended—you have no idea what experiences a person has had that would cause him/her to feel a certain way.

The Tonto post was particularly bad because it pushes a stereotype that, besides its pernicious nature, is also basically untrue. Native Americans have fought against their characterization as primitive for ages, and while it’s not quite on the same level as, say, Chief Wahoo, the stylized language of the Tonto post doesn’t exactly do much to counter the view of NAs as backwards and uncivilized.

Finally, as an aside, what exactly was funny about the post?! It didn’t even have jokes! I read it and was like, ‘well this is kinda racist, at least it’ll be buried pretty soon…26 recs???’

harenshair - August 24, 2009 reply

Actually, 33 now.

I rec'd it

Sometimes I stay up many moons to wap-a-pap

CaliforniaJag - August 25, 2009 reply

But see, you are butchering the stereotype

The stereotype is NOT “Native Americans are primitive”. The stereotype is “Native Americans, like many Asian, Indian, and Hispanic cultures, have difficulty translating their language directly to English without grammatical errors.” The only thing that made it specific to Native Americans was that he used a couple terms (wap-a-pap and Tonto, for example) that made one think of Native Americans. I bet you could pretty much rewrite the post verbatim using Asian phrases instead of Native American ones and it would look pretty much the same.

CaliforniaJag - August 25, 2009 reply

Except that it would be better at math.

And drive slower.

iglew - August 25, 2009 reply

Now that was funny

DMOAS - August 25, 2009 reply

Exactly

this topic is becoming a joke

Trainman - August 24, 2009 reply

But an offensive one, mind you!

Jack Custs OPS went up 25 (!) points this game. Wow.

travdog6 - August 24, 2009 reply

only 25?

DFA. No more stickouts

Let's don't handcuff our creative writers.

It makes AN much less fun.

IM4Oakgal - August 24, 2009 reply

I like handcuffs.

Oh, you meant.

Yeah.

67MARQUEZ - August 24, 2009 reply

I really don't get this attitude

What about being racist is fun? What about making homophobic comments is fun? Please explain to me the virtue of extolling Dan Whites’ aim.

Im not trying to railroad anyone. When I have made requests that language has been changed, when people have responded the way that Emmett did above or Blicks did in regards to a rape comment, I thank them and the issue is over. When you pull a Nico and trivialize and attack me for bringing up these objections, you’re going to get an argument and resentment from me, plain and simple.

Rape is a crime

Pretty much CORRECTLY mimicking the language patterns of a group is not.

It's also not a laughing matter.

Well, unless it’s a clown.

Picture Daffy Duck raping Porky Pig

See? It can be funny!

I can’t take credit for that joke though (George Carlin)

I don't find that funny at all

Think of all the Pucks Porky would have, getting slapped around all the time. Oh wait, Porky’s a dude isn’t he…

Re: your requests

So when you get what you want, you thank people for it? How magnanimous of you. And when you don’t…

jeepers - August 24, 2009 via mobile reply

only

15 gb in wild card :)

sPaNiArD440 - August 24, 2009 reply

Landon Powell is awesome.

OldhamA - August 24, 2009 reply

Look, if you're going to

post baseball-related comments on an obviously non-baseball thread, well, I am going to have to ask you to do it more often.

And may I be so bold as to agree with your assessment of Mr. Powell?

67MARQUEZ - August 24, 2009 reply

If he didn't have the knee problems

Powell looks like he could have been a tremendous player. As it is, I think the A’s have some interesting options with him:

1) Keep him in the current role as backup to Suzuki, and try to figure out a way to get him 30 starts a season behind the plate, plus maybe 15 other starts at DH or 1B. That could get him up to 150 PAs. Despite his knee problems, he still looks like an excellent catcher, and a guy who hits like that and is a good catcher is tremendously valuable.

2) Make him the regular DH, who occasionally catches. Assuming that hitting doesn’t hurt his knees too much, and assuming that hitting regularly would get him in a better rhythm, he could also be an excellent DH.

3) See if he can handle some 1B to get him more ABs. I’m mentioning this only because the A’s have put him at 1B this season, not because I think it’s a great option for Powell, and with all the other DHs in the system there’s not much point.

I wouldn’t consider trading Zook, because (a) Suzuki is also a very good young catcher whom the young staff seems to trust, and (b) Powell could blow out his knee again at any time, and that’s too big a risk to take.

Powell is a really good, young power hitter, and if I were in the A’s’ FO I’d argue for figuring out a way to get him as many ABs as possible next season. Right now, I’d probably push for option #2, with the balance between DH and C dictated by his physical condition.

This.

People forget that Powell was drafted before Suzuki, he was an All American, etc.

He had the chance to be a pretty special player if injuries didn’t wreck his minor league development. We’re actually pretty darn lucky Suzuki rocketed through the system the way he did.

The other thing I think that we need to consider is the Texas issue

They had four good looking options to start at catcher in the offseason, Laird, Salty, Teagarden, and Ramirez. Now they have to trade for Pudge because they traded Laird, Salty kinda sucks and he go hurt, Teagarden can’t really hit, and Max Ramirez who was never really a catcher anyway hurt his wrist. Imagine if they traded Salty to Boston like they were rumored too.

Catching depth can disappear more quickly than you think.

That being said Im all for trying him out at 1b DH and even 3b. I think moving forward hes a better option that Everidge at at least the first two positions.

I like the idea of him occasionally getting at bats at 1B and DH, but it shouldn't be a

regular thing – I’m of the thinking that Suzuki needs as much time off as possible though. I doubt he can even play 3B to be honest.

OldhamA - August 24, 2009 reply

I think the use of Suzuki is going to kill his knees

Powells range seemed good at first the couple of games I saw him at and in an impossibly small sample size that is really probably irrelevant, uzr supports him having an above average range component. Its worth a shot at least.

Maybe

But I wouldn’t worry about it at this point in his career. I’d like to see Powell used more as catcher just because that’s the only way he’ll stay in practice and improve his game-calling.
I also think Powell should be playing DH more regularly because he’s still in his developmental stage as a hitter.

richwol1 - August 24, 2009 reply

I don;t like DH

because the position is lost if he has to catch.

but if we have decent guys off the bench, they can always PH late in the game

for the pitcher turned DH if Powell has to slide over to C.

Of course, that’s assuming we have better options than BoCro and Nomar for PH duties next year….

cityplANner - August 24, 2009 reply

So either Cust isn't here or he plays the field (not an option).

I like him in the role he’s in now, it just needs to be expanded – he needs to get more starts to a) get his bat in the lineup more often and b) rest Suzuki’s knees.

He’s certainly a case of ‘what might have been’ – the talent is there and he’s produced when given the shot in the majors it’s just a shame his career has been derailed by injuries. Still he’s made it as a very good backup catcher which is nothing to be sneezed at.

OldhamA - August 24, 2009 reply

That's a valid point about Cust

and after posting my comment I thought, “Hmm, wait a minute, what about Cust?” I’m in the pro-Cust camp, which means I have no independent desire to get rid of him whatsoever. Still, my guess is that Powell’s knee problems limit his catching a lot more than his hitting, and I’d really love the A’s to figure out how to get him ABs beyond the 30 games a year he should be starting at C.

It’s too bad that he’s so much better against RH than LH — if he improved his hitting against LH, he’d be a reasonable option as a sometime-DH against LH (when they might want to sit Cust anyway).

I've thought about Powell as "most time DH / backup C"

and I think what it comes down to is: Who would be a better hitter overall in a full season, straight-up, Powell or Cust?

Because if it’s Powell, who also happens to be cheaper, younger, and takes up only one roster spot for both jobs, you really need to get him the 400+ PAs a hitter of that caliber should be getting on a mediocre hitting team.

But if it’s Cust, who is more proven, healthier, and also pretty affordable, you can’t discard one of your only true power threats.

So to me, it’s about whether Powell, in a full season DHing, could put up a .360 OBP or a .320 OBP, whether he could hit 25 HRs or 15 HRs, and so on.

Unfortunately

I don’t think Powell’s health will allow him to get 450 PAs in a season.

I don't know -- he might hold up better batting 450 times

than catching 30 times. I worry more about the catching than batting or the occasional running (lumbering) on the bases.

Knees and DH

I’m trying to remember which player it was who wore a huge knee brace for years — was it Sid Bream? I’m pretty sure it was. In any case, that’s one of the things I’d definitely be asking the orthopedists and trainers and Powell during the last few months of the season: does hitting and running irritate Powell’s knee injuries, or is the main problem with catching?

better than braces

robot pants

I think the problem is losing the DH

If you make Powell the most of the time DH then you have to carry a third catcher.

Barton?

I kid, I kid.

Thats actually a viable solution

I mean it wouldn’t need to be used on a long term basis, so if he can catch a couple of innings here and there and not totally embarrass himself that would work.

A few innings in one game

Wouldn’t overly concern me for something like that. If anything, I tend to think the occurrence of that is less likely to harm a team than what it’s likely to gain.

BordickBrosiusBerroa - August 24, 2009 reply

It's already the ninth and I'm just getting to the game, but so what.

The problem with taking insult at every perceived politically correct offense is that the “offended” is the informant, officer, dispatcher, judge, jury, bailiff, warden, appeals court, chief justice, congress, unruly mob, president, dictator, and posse comitatus. The “offended” is the entire universe of righteousness since the standard by which every other person has to live up to is their sensitivity, and often, in my view, hypersensitivity. Who knows why one person is offended while another or many others, even with the same background, are amused by the same comment. The cause of the difference certainly is not Nico or any one else here on AN. The reason for offence may be valid but the almost cosmic reference to creating an atomsphere of offense is, in my mind, nearly always invalid and very much so. All that sort of hypersensitivity does is make the offended the unsatisfiable god of speech.

We all need thick skin just to be in the same room with our most beloved loved ones. And so it is also here on AN. I enjoy you all and all of your comments. Perhaps I’ll get to meet some of you some day. I’ll be the one wearing green and gold armor.

Great points; thanks for this comment