Athletics Nation

"even if they all thrive"

Here’s a way to avoid the confusion: they won’t.

At least some, if not most, of those names will never have any MLB appearance beyond a cup of coffee or two. Some might not even get that.

Way to shatter our giddyness.

;)

That's a major "missing the point" observation, because

since one can’t pencil in the exact right people, one just puts down markers for whomever might actually be in a given position — either through trade, FA signing, or surprising development in your own system.

It only requires Wallace, Cardenas, and Carter to make it for this to be highly relevant, because they are the ones most being played in different overlapping positions. And the odds that all three of them will play for the A’s at the big league level is quite high.

Wrong

It requires all three of them to make it, Wallace to be good enough at 1B, 3B, and DH that he’s not strictly worse than one of the other options, Cardenas to be good enough at 2B, 3B, and DH that he’s not strictly worse than one of the other options, and Carter to be good enough at DH, 1B, and LF that he’s not strictly worse than one of the other options. This is not a likely scenario.

For example, I think it’s highly likely that even with the other people in the field on Sunday the A’s would have a better DH than Cardenas available.

More to the point, you’re wishcasting (oddly) based upon all of the A’s’ highly regarded prospects panning out three seasons from now, and no unknown names coming into play. It is not “missing the point” to point out that the odds of this scenario a eat-my-hat wager away from zero.

No, you still miss my point.

This post is intended to provide discussion for something that is unlikely to happen but still interesting to ponder.

If someone asked, “We know Brett Anderson has had this owie and that, with his back, a blister, etc. Let’s say he went 20-6, 3.38 next season — would you consider signing him to an extension?” you could reply, “He probably won’t have those numbers next season.” Well yeah, but…not really the point of the question.

To the extent that this is an exercise in imagination, you're right

I missed the point. My bad.

Butterflies in the sky....

I can go twice as high…..

yeah

its all speculation, after all we know that Nick Johnson will have a 1 year deal in 2012 to try to prove he is healthy. And Elvis Andrus will be trying to prove he is not Angel berroa.

Future Ed - August 21, 2009 reply

And Angel Berroa will be trying to prove he's not Angel Berroa.

LOL...

MMunoz33 - August 23, 2009 reply

I think the rotating DH works best on teams like the Yankees

with old players who need more days off, so that you can rotate through a Jeter, Posada, Arod to keep them fresh as well as having the financial resources to provide a lot of depth so that there is less of a drop off in the field. When you are locked in to that many contracts with that many aging former stars you need to keep them fresh because you are on the hook for a boatload of money. When you look at a young team, moving them around just jerks them around which is kinda the anti give them a chance to get settled at the highest level of baseball in the world.

Keeping Guys Fresh

It’s a good thing. It seems like the Twins do a great job of resting players, too (Giving Joe Mauer a day off all the time). The A’s do a terrible job of resting players. This is an area the organization absolutely needs to improve upon in order to be successful after this “rebuilding” phase.

Colorado Fan - August 21, 2009 reply

I've noticed the Twins aren't actually giving Mauer true days off...

…but Gardenhire’s done it so he hasn’t caught more than six games in a row and on the days he doesn’t catch he either DHes or pinch-hits. Dunno if that’s what you were getting at.

Flashfire - August 21, 2009 reply

Reply

Its much better if you actually reply to the person you are talking to because a really easy way to see if someone has replied to you across multiple threads is by looking at your user history and when you reply two or three comments down, as you have a tendency to do, it makes that ineffective.

On the flip side,

there’s also likely to be some guy currently in our system that right now we’re barely noticing who surprisingly comes out of nowhere and is actually good enough to make the team. (Not to mention several various veterans we sign and/or trade for between now and 2012.)

This is certainly true

You mean someone like Davis or Kennedy?

Or

Tommy Everidge

sf drift king - August 21, 2009 reply

couldn't agree more

the name Do-little doesn’t inspire confidence..

sf drift king - August 21, 2009 reply

I'll bite, even though I hightly doubt all these guys pan out.

On the “Thursday” lineup, I would move Donaldson to DH, Cardenas back to 3B, and Weeks back to 2B.

I don’t really see a good reason to shuffle guys all over the infield like what you had with Cardenas, even if the intent is to give Weeks a pretend day off by having him DH.

I must concede your most excellent point.

Maybe Cardenas only plays 2B if Weeks is out (not like he would ever get injured) and then you’d have maybe Wallace or Donaldson at 3B, the other at DH, Cardenas at 2B. Or…maybe you just start your backup 2Bman!

I think that's A bad idea

Many DHs have commented that moving back and forth between the field and dhing is harder than specializing. I also think that you don’t want to sacrafice the defense like you do. Furthermore I think real rest is significantly better than partial rest and the temptation to not rest players because they have dhed this week will be too much.

designatedforassignment - August 21, 2009 via mobile reply

maybe not for DH

but all that built-in positional flexibility will make each of those guys very valuable for the team and valuable trading chips to boot.

cityplANner - August 21, 2009 reply

Disagree.

I’d rather have a guy who is a very good defensive 3B only instead of just an OK 3b as well as an OK 2B.

That’s just preference though.

The question then becomes, what do you do if

both Wallace and Cardenas can handle 3B well (and hit the way the A’s hope)? Do you move Wallace to 1B anyway?

Yes

hero66 - August 21, 2009 reply

Easy Answer

It’s the same answer you’d give if Albert Pujols agreed to join the team for the league minimum. Keep the better guy and make the worse guy a backup or trade him for something you need.

williadc - August 21, 2009 reply

Wallace 3B, Cardenas 2B, Weeks CF.

Too easy!

Actually, my original plan was to include Weeks rotating to CF,

but then I decided I couldn’t really introduce a possibility the A’s haven’t yet ever tried or discussed.

Well, I look at it this way

IF Wallace can stick at third, Cardenas needs a spot. From what we’ve all gathered, he would be a pretty darn good 2B.

So, IF Wallace is at third, and IF Cardenas shifts back to second, I’d love to see Weeks give CF a shot. He’s got the speed to cover the ground needed, he doesn’t need to have a cannon for an arm, and there are really no CF prospects in the system that are as close to he is to the big leagues.

Hell, it worked for that Upton character.

The chances of that are infinitesimally small

First the chances that Wallace will stick there are very low to start out with. Second that requires that all three of them don’t bust which is low odds. Third it requires that Weeks defense – Cardenas’s defense at 2b + the difference in Cardenas’ defense vrs Wallace at the 3b + Wallace’s defense vrs other 1bman + Weeks’ bat – other first baseman’s bat is a positive number, which as you can see is complicated and hard to figure out.

LOUD NOISES

(the hollow sound of a violent wind passing between my ears)

You missed the point

mikev is fantasizing.

Sorry I tend to like pseudo reality based constructs of the future.

This entire fanpost is less than pseudo reality based.

I know

If the point was to talk about the DH positions evolving role, whether or no that is impacted by a post PED world, whether the positional adjustment for DH’s need to change, whether the A’s should abandon the way they have used the DH in the past, then I think the framing of the debate was poor. If the question was WTF are we going to do with all these teh awesome playerz? then the answer is simple… some to many of them will suck and you will want nothing to do with them.

You're still missing the point

I have a dream…

The Fun part, no matter how low the odds are for all to make it as hoped.

Wallace could become a Gold Glove 3B
Cardenas a GG 2B or 3B
Weeks a GG 2B or CF
Carter could just be a Beast and do Ok at 1B or LF
Doolitte and Desme GG OF

It is like the lotto, no matter how bad the odds, and in this case these are all real good prospects, you can win the lotto, someone will win.

You forgot Wimberly is going to be an Olympic gold medal winning back-flipper.

Darn, I Missed that!

So, you're saying it's possible?

Its possible that that Nigerian prince that emailed you today will really give you a million bucks if you just wire him 10k

The funny thing is, I don't think he's very good with his paperwork.

He sent me another email asking for money before he had responded to my 10k wire….

That word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

You actually don’t know if they’ve discussed it.

speckops - August 21, 2009 reply

Publicly, I mean

2012

is when the world is ending, dont you guys read anything that isnt baseball-related?

can we just rush these guys up next year and win the final WS in 2011?

PL78 - August 21, 2009 reply

Are you saying the Giants win the World Series in 2012?

jpl - August 21, 2009 reply

The world, as we know it, won't end until 12/21/12 so this team can win the World Series.

And we'd go down in history as the last WS winner. Short history, but the last nonetheless.

Actually the A's would become a dynasty as California is going to be the only state not affected.

Correction, Only San Francisco will be affected in CA.

Can I get a warning so I know to work from home that day?

I will send out an update at the beginning of Dec 2012 :-)

Interesting concept

We talked about the DH spot in one of those rare Jack Cust fanposts earlier this week about how the DH might be changing because of the way baseball is played without PED’s.

I guess I’m at the point where I don’t see the point of having some plodding veteran DH type and would rather see a player who can move things along at the DH spot. Of course you do need power to come from somewhere and looking at those line-ups that looks to be a problem.

The A’s are going to have to find a cleanup hitter somewhere and I guess it doesn’t matter if he’s a DH or plays 1B or one of the corner outfield spots.

Right -- the idea behind this is that it's not a ground-breaking idea

I thought of this morning, but rather a technique teams have used occasionally in the past, when they have had the luxury of the type of team Yankees clubs often have and A’s clubs seldom have.

This is a good idea

I read a Hardball Times article that said the DH is a waste of a roster space because the guys in those roles don’t perform that great and should go away as a position to be replaced by an additional roster spot.

My first thought upon reading that was, why not have four power hitting outfielders who can split time between the field and DH? As long as 2 can play CF it should work out okay.

This seems to follow that same sort of concept… maybe not DH Weeks and move Cardenas from 3B to 2B repeatedly but… in general, a good idea.

I think the problem is that it's unlikely 2 can play CF

(look at how many “not quites” the A’s have had recently, from Hairston to Buck to Cunningham to Patterson, all unable to handle the position defensively). It highlights why Jay Payton was a pretty valuable player even with an OBP around .300 — the OBP came with a lot of hits, some power, and CF defense.

However, if you have a good CFer you can still rotate 3 corner OFers or you can add 1B to the mix to rotate 4 guys.

Yep

I agree… that was a for instance, not saying the A’s would have two stud hitters who could play great center field defense. I think the Angels did something like this with Torrii Hunter, Gary Matthews, Vlad and Garrett Anderson… Two guys could play good centerfield, but only two fo the four were really good hitters anymore… so I am with you…

Say you have Daric Barton, Kurt Suzuki, Landon Powell and Chris Carter all vying for time and proving themselves deserving of time (wouldn’t that be nice?). You could have three of them playing at all times between C, DH and 1B.

Here's the reason for the specialist DH

When someone is DH’ing, his defensive value is 0, even if the player who’s DHing is a good defensive player (e.g, Suzuki). So assuming that teams have to pay for players’ value (that’s a bit of a stretch, but not a crazy one), it’s more efficient to find a guy who’s +20 runs or something offensively but -5 OF defensively, and DH him, than to find a 4th OF who’s +12 offensively and a +3 defensively. Overall, their contribution as OF is the same, and you’d probably have to pay them the same; but if you sign the first guy and DH him, you get a better hitter at no cost to your defense.

That’s the theory, at any rate. Flexibility has obvious advantages, though (it’s useful to have a DH who can play in the field when someone’s hurt for a couple of games, for instance). I think it all depends on what kind of hitter is available to a particular team at a given time.

Nick - August 21, 2009 reply

It's hypotheticals like this

That make me glad I work in technology and nto finance or baseball, :)

This is a very good response.

My problem is

I was promised “special” in 2010. Someone lied to me. {wink}

67MARQUEZ - August 21, 2009 reply

You will get Special in 2010. I consulted a psychic and she said the A's were going to have a breakout season and win the WS

She also said the A’s would have the lowest team ERA and starters ERA in MLB and would be first in HRs.

And I didn’t have to pay that much to get that reading…. It’s funny how a person holding a sign on the freeway off ramp with “Will work for food” can be such a fantastic psychic.

Here’s how I see the A’s lineup in 2012.

1. [one of our hot prospects but I’m not sure which one]
2. [another one of our hot prospects but I’m not sure which one]
3. [another one of our hot prospects but I’m not sure which one]
4. [some off-the-radar guy in our system who nobody is even talking about right now]
5. [a hot prospect I’ve never heard of because he’s currently in another team’s system and we haven’t traded for him yet]
6. [another hot prospect I’ve never heard of because he’s currently in another team’s system and we haven’t traded for him yet]
7. [a veteran that I have heard of but never guessed that he’d end up playing for the A’s]
8. [another veteran who is pretty good right now but will be washed up by 2012 which is why Billy was able to sign him for so cheap]
9. [a guy currently on the team right now, but I’m not sure which one]

And Bob Geren as manager.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MMunoz33 - August 23, 2009 reply

Correction

5. [a hot prospect ~~I’ve never~~ heard of only briefly in DFA’s Possible Trade Partners series because he’s currently in another team’s system and we haven’t traded for him yet]
6. [another hot prospect ~~I’ve never~~ heard of only briefly in DFA’s Possible Trade Partners series because he’s currently in another team’s system and we haven’t traded for him yet]

Good to see you've stayed modest DFA

Ive never been cursed with modesty. :-)

That would explain those pictures I saw....

Good answer DFA

When you’re a dumbass like me you have to be modest or people will throw things at you.

Nothing to correct

“mentioned in DFA’s Possible Trade Partners series” and “iglew has never heard of” are not mutually exclusive terms.

Oh snap

Very well played

But I’ve seen you around those parts and I assume you read the post before heckling me in the comments :-)

designatedforassignment - August 21, 2009 via mobile reply

OK, busted, but I still bet

we’re more likely to find success with some prospect who isn’t among those you’ve discussed than one who is.

I know... I was just kidding

I actually really liked your lineup though.

Eh... I guess this part of the season gets slow when you're not in it...

and since the most exciting thing going on from an A’s fan’s perspective is the youngsters. But still… I’d be surprised if any of those 4 lineups happens ever…

PS- Am I the only one who thinks Cardenas will be the next Placido Polanco?

brenarlo - August 21, 2009 reply

I've never seen a picture of Cardenas with his hat off,

but even with the hat on you can clearly see that he’s no Placido Polanco.

you mean he will hit .800 against the a's?

Future Ed - August 21, 2009 reply

Careful brenarlo

You’re in serious danger of missing the point (which, despite the fact that the entire body of the post is imaginary lineups, has nothing to do with the lineups themselves)

As long as he's not the next Placido Domingo

Unless the A’s need a designated tenor.

Hey, they ALSO play right next to the bass!

Domingo in the tenor position

was always a stretch, but he definitely can’t play there now.

would it be bad if he were Placido Polanco?

Elston Gunn - August 21, 2009 reply

I wouldn't bench Wallace against a lefty

Once he makes it to the bigs, he should never be forced into a platoon. Let the kid figure out how to hit lefties or else he won’t learn.

UOSportsDude - August 21, 2009 reply

Yeah

2012 will be Wallace’s 3rd season in the bigs, if he’s platooning then God help us.

mrrickyg - August 21, 2009 reply

I am in agreement...

…but, how about we let him learn now, in the minors?

LeSaboteur - August 21, 2009 reply

If Rajai can continue...

….his unholy deal with the devil to channel Rickey continues, he deserves a spot on that roster.

Yes, he’ll be, what?, 31, but that’s practically prime.

LeSaboteur - August 21, 2009 reply

Paging the Department of Redundancy Department.

LeSaboteur - August 21, 2009 reply

Nico,

that’s too much youth for me. The A’s need to sign another batch of FA veterans, and hopefully this time, they sign the right combination. The Giambi, Holliday, Cabrera, Nomar mix just didn’t pan out.

sf drift king - August 21, 2009 reply

Yeah, just so it's clear

there’s probably a veteran or two in there somewhere, but it may not be one in the system currently, so I can’t very well name them — I’m just looking at the “projected 2012 as of today, give or take a dead rat” as a basis for the discussion.

Duchscherer to miss the rest of ’09 because of clinical depression.

Because there's no DLD

So there ya go.

vegAN ryAN - August 21, 2009 reply

Awwww...Good luck, Duke

That’s a tough beast to tackle.

Does he resign with the A's?

I bet not.

brenarlo - August 21, 2009 reply

Dang, that's a bummer.

Here’s Stiglich, with a couple more comments from Duke’s agent.

Its interesting that there is suddenly a significant increase in mental health diagnoses in the MLB

Its got to still be lower than in the general population but I find it interesting that Willis, Greene, Snell, and now Duke all got diagnosed this year when I can’t remember a single other one. Hopefully that means that teams are doing more to help their players.

Good luck Duke.

In other news: GAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!!!

The A’s have put Crosby on the 15-day DL, but only after playing with a bench on Wednesday where they really could have used a right-handed pinch hitter, really could have used a pinch runner, and really needed the ability to pinch-hit for an infielder and/or an OFer, and couldn’t do any of those the way they needed to.

Unbelievable.

You know at the end of the game thread

I made a comment about how nostalgic the game made me for the days when they A’s had a bench full of injured guys who couldn’t play but weren’t put on the DL. I almost made another comment in your game-wrap about how the A’s were inevitably going to end up retroactively DLing Crosby or Hairston to the day of that game (but, of course, without the ability to retroactively pinch hit for Pennington).

Sometimes it’s not so fun to be right.

Nick - August 21, 2009 reply

that was my beef with roster and lineup management on Wednesday

I couldn’t understand why they wouldn’t just DL Crosby and bring up an extra infielder. Even Barton could have been activated (his leg still isn’t 100%, he told Marty Lurie).

Whose call is it to DL Crosby and make sure you have enough position players – Geren or Beane?

OaklandSi - August 21, 2009 reply

I have to think that while the manager has input,

roster decisions are made by the GM and related advisers. When you literally don’t have a single bench player who can run unimpeded, you can’t wait a day too long to DL one of them. That’s just real mismanagement — especially because it’s Crosby, not Suzuki or Bailey, that you’re faced being without for 10 more days.

Crosby on the DL

Even though “The Cros” has brought some comedy to AN this year I sure hope he never suits up again in an A’s uniform. I’m sure he’s a nice guy but I can’t remember someone I disliked more playing for the A’s. So good night and good luck Bobby I hope you do well for that beer league softball team you play for next season.

+1

rec’d…

MMunoz33 - August 23, 2009 reply

But the 15-day DL is retroactive to the last time he played, right?

So that means we can go back to Wednesday’s game and pinch-run with Cunningham.

the real question is

who takes his place? Petit? I’d really like to see that guy get a real chance

cuppingmaster - August 21, 2009 reply

Barton.

for real?

cuppingmaster - August 21, 2009 reply

According to RotoWorld, and they're NEVER wrong!

At least losing is good for our draft position.

This is how I take solace in these kinds of things. But youre right roster management has been terrible this year and in years prior.