Now that Sean Gallagher has been confirmed as the PTBNL, reality has hit: The A's got something of value, and the A's gave up something of value too. As someone high on Gallagher at the time of the Rich Harden trade, I'm not going to play "sour grapes" and analyze this trade as "well I never liked Gallagher much anyway." However...There are some additional reasons I think the trade is still, on balance, a very good one for Oakland.

* The A's insisted on, were excited about, and were willing to trade Harden for, a pitcher, in Sean Gallagher, who threw 95MPH and had no known history of "issues" that might predict issues with his development. But that's not who the A's traded. Gallagher did not throw 95MPH after that seductive first Oakland start, and considering that he came with only spotty command (good in the minors, but hardly razor-sharp in the bigs), and a curve that only he and hitters seemed to like, Gallagher's drop in velocity represented a problem with the one and only tool that really made him special.
Couple that with behind-the-scenes issues -- be it with his attitude, his work ethic, his conditioning, we don't know -- clearly something soured Oakland on the same guy on whom they had such great hopes a year ago. There just isn't such a thing as "Sean Gallagher, period." The Gallagher the A's acquired was simply worth a lot more than the one they dealt. It happens. But the A's did not deal a potential #2 starter with a 95MPH fastball, even if that's what they got a year ago.
* I don't think he's a .300 hitter, but Scott Hairston appears to be capable of hitting 20 HRs and stealing 20 bases. That won't win you any MVP awards, but consider how important an upgrade that offers the A's lineup in the near future.
Forget 30+ HR hitters; how many 20+ HR hitters do the A's really have going forward? Jack Cust. That's it. Sweeney hasn't shown that kind of power, Buck hasn't reliably shown that kind of ability, Barton doesn't promise that kind of power. Ellis, Suzuki? Not quite. How about 20 SB? Buck could steal 20 bases if he got on base enough, but can you write him down for a 20 SB season? Not at this point. Sweeney? No. Ellis? No.
In contrast, look up and down the current Angels' lineup and you see potential 20+ HR threats in Guerrero, Hunter, Napoli, Rivera, and Morales, and 20+ SB threats in Figgins, Aybar, and Hunter. The A's don't have enough "decent power threats" or "decent running threats" up and down their lineup and Hairston actually aids both causes.
As the A's try to build a respectable offense again, don't take these skills too lightly. 30/30 is terrific but 20/20 is big too, because you won't easily find or afford many 30 HR guys or 30-40 SB guys, and even when you have one your offense is still lacking without 2-3 other "20 HR" and/or "20 SB" guys -- but is also pretty potent with 2-3 of those added to the mix.
* A phone salesman is peddling a product, and just needs 1 out of 20 people to say yes in order to make $100.00. He calls the first person and the person says "no thanks." The phone salesman says, "Dang, no sale." Next to him is another phone salesman, peddling the same product, calling his first number and also hearing "no thanks." The phone salesman says, "Ca-ching, made another $5.00!"
The point is, the second salesman understands that calling is a process. Make enough calls and on average you'll end up with $5.00 for every call you make. Sure, some of the calls will yield $0.00 and some will yield $100.00 -- in fact most will yield $0.00 -- but it doesn't really matter whether a given call yields a sale or not, because if you just keep calling you'll hit those "every 20 calls" that give you your bounty.
Prospects work the same way. If a prospect has a 10% chance of blossoming into a surprisingly successful player, then he's probably going to bust. It's unlikely, for example, that Ryan Webb will single-handedly make this trade great for the Padres and horrible for the A's, and it's unlikely that Matt Spencer will be the reason the Blanton trade was so good for Oakland, such a disaster for the Phillies.
But if you make enough trades that include getting and giving C-level prospects, the reality is that somewhere along the line, someone is bound to be far better than expected, and that the trade will look far different in hindsight than it did at the time. The important things to remember are that this is just bound to happen occasionally and that it is impossible to predict, and so it shouldn't really make that trade better or worse even in hindsight -- because it just happened to be that 20th phone call, and when you trade, or get, 10 C-level prospects over time, you do it knowing that 1 will probably turn out to be really good but also that you just can't know which one, which trade, and that really you're just playing the odds over time.
So probably the best way to judge trades that involve prospects (who aren't headliners) is just to assign them a "10%," or a "20%," in your mind and leave it at that. Sure, one of those prospects from one of those trades is going to blossom, but darned if even the scouts or GMs know which one.
1 recs | 75 comments
the sales call metaphor was very nicely put
it’s always frustrating when people rip GM’s when a prospect ends up being good for another team 3 or 4 years down the line… we got what we needed now. if one of the prospects ends up being good, then it’s a win-win trade, not a loss for us.
SamYam - July 14, 2009
Yeah I've never understood the Ethier thing
Milton Bradley helped the A’s get past the first round of the playoffs in the Billy Beane tenure. Granted he flamed out, but he served the purpose while he was here.
Tyler Bleszinski - July 14, 2009
Yeah, but that was years ago.
It’s over and done with, no longer exists. When evaluating a trade, all that really counts is the future years. What have we got to show for that trade now? Absolutely nothing.
(And don’t even get me started about the Canseco trade….)
iglew - July 14, 2009
I still have some photos from when I was at the final game of the ALDS series
that’s not nothing
bobnothing - July 14, 2009
Was I too subtle?
I think the steak and lobster metaphor was better. But come to think of it, someone misunderstood that one, too. I seem to be having trouble making this point.
iglew - July 14, 2009
theoretical question for you out of curiousity...
If a powerful deity came to you in 2006, and said that you can trade Andre Ethier and definitely make the ALCS this year, or keep him, and definitely make the ALCS in 2010, what would you have chosen at the time?
I know I personally would have gone for the instant gratification, and nothing will ever replace that moment before ALDS game 3, watching Brad Radke warm up, knowing it would be the last start of his career, and with an overwhelming feeling that he was going to lose it, too.
Gaijin_Suketto - July 14, 2009
The hypotheticalness is pretty extreme, but
I assume I’d go for 2006. Among other things, there’s no guarantee I will still be around in 2010.
By the way, I think you and I are in agreement on this point. Not sure if that was clear. It’s the future-fetishists that I’m arguing against, in my roundabout way.
iglew - July 14, 2009
You may not realize this, iglew, but
Beane can’t actually trade fans. You’re safe for 2010.
Nico - July 14, 2009
I like Ethier and all
but looking at this team going forward, making the ALCS in 2010 would by no means be definite even with Ethier.
Nate - July 15, 2009
Same with me on Pena.
Exactly how many years… and organizations… were we supposed to wait?
UncleLeo - July 14, 2009
Six...but not seven!
It was so obvious all along.
Nico - July 14, 2009
I feel so impetuous.
UncleLeo - July 14, 2009
wait, wasnt Matt Spencer from the Phillies?
harendaman365 - July 14, 2009
Yes he was
That Blanton trade sure looks nice right now, minus Tommy John for Outman.
jeffro - July 14, 2009
I have complete faith that Outman, fighter of the Hitman, will
return from TJS in tip top shape and get people out, man.
Blicks - July 14, 2009
His first start back -
The Outman cometh.
walk off bunt - July 14, 2009
In less than a minute, or is that just Crosby?
Nico - July 14, 2009
Yes, harendaman365 -- that's why it's so unlikely
to be a bad trade for the Cubs. See how utterly brilliant I am?
Meh, it’s fixed.
Nico - July 14, 2009
Wait and see trade
Just like the harden trade this is a wiat and see trade. As good as Harden was last year for the cubs this year he is back to the injured Harden so its a a push now type of trade. Hairston is exactly what you put him as a 20/20 guy. He is the right handed bat the A’s needed against lefties but is not a 300 hittter. What Gallagher does for the Padres will be how this trade turns out.
Arcman - July 14, 2009
One more piece to the puzzle
In the category of a $5.00 call there’s also Josh Donaldson
itsgemme - July 14, 2009
I was thinking the same thing
adragon - July 14, 2009
Good post but...
I agree only to an extent. There is still individual variability in how often a given scout’s prospects will hit. Some guys only get 1 out of 25, and others maybe 1 out of 15. Moreover, the probability of a a prospect hitting the bigs changes over the course of that player’s development (see Sean Gallagher), so it’s possible to affix better odds on players than the stock, 1 out of 20 or whatever it is. The scout/GM that has a higher overall rate of landing MLB players and who has a better method of predicting likelihood of success as a function of individual player development is a better scout/GM than one who is lower in these areas. So while I agree it’s difficult to judge a GM by one trade alone, you can judge GMs and their trade record on a more macro level. (Unfortunately, judging GMs in this way is likely to be full of errors and biases since there is no concrete standard for evaluating them. That is, people are likely to be unduly swayed in their judgments of GMs, for example, by really memorable trades or by trades that went especially poorly/well for their favorite team, rather than by track record alone. Does anyone keep real data on GM’s trade performance?)
smokelanda - July 14, 2009
That is what I was thinking
To put it in the context of the phone sales, each of the sales people get a set of leads. So one person may, over time get 1 sale out of 20 with their leads. The other may get 1 out of 50. Now in the sales world you assume they all come from the same batch, but here each team has their own way of getting their calling list.
And of course, we are all hoping that Billy snuck in and stole the Glengarry leads…
5Aces - July 14, 2009
Great Post Nico
The sales call analogy is a good way of putting this trade in perspective.
When watched Gallagher’s last train-wreck of a start: I remembered thinking that his days were numbered. When he later stated that he had read Suzuki’s sign, but absent-mindlessly toss the wrong pitch anyway, and jeopardizing the health of arguably the most important player on the field. At the end of the day, Gallagher wasn’t what the organization hoped for, but at least he helped get another offensive tool to the line-up.
hishnik - July 14, 2009
I have a feeling
The Crossed-up passed ball, may have been the nail in Gallagher’s coffin with the A’s.
hishnik - July 14, 2009
Seems like he was a marked man since Spring Training
I wonder if he reported out of shape.
Nico - July 14, 2009
I think it was because he got "bent out of shape" when he didn't make the rotation.
LoneStranger - July 14, 2009
Me thinks Gags was hitting the clubs one too many times for Beane's taste
and that his lifestyle outside of baseball was starting to catch up to him. It wouldn’t be the first time something like that has happened. I think a similar thing was rumored to have ben the case last year with T-Buck in ST……….but who knows? Just speculation but when you hear whispers over and over one has to pause for thought and consider if in fact certain things follow players around…….go A’s!
mrod - July 14, 2009
Is it a sign that I am getting older that when I first read the title of your post
my first thought was “really, Beane was upset because Gallagher spent too much time golfing?”
AsFanInLA - July 14, 2009
but I thought we weren’t selling jeans here?
carp - July 14, 2009
You're wrong
Every trade needs to be won or lost, every GM needs to be the dumbest ever or the smartest in history. That is the way of the innertubes
1
niallmack - July 14, 2009
plus like a million woot :)
Future Ed - July 14, 2009
Exactly.
Foresight, hindsight…pfft. Current sight is all that matters. And anyone on the roster or in the minors that is actually liked by those in fandom is/are off limits in a trade. Fans like me demand that the team [no, MY team] gets all-star caliber players for the Crosbys, Hannahans, T.Longs, and K.Ginters of the game. We also demand that our teams spend whateverit takes to retain the services of all-star caliber players for as long as it takes and until our moods sour on said players.
LowcountryJoe - July 14, 2009
Beating a Dead Horse
I don’t think there’s a whole lot of need to keep analyzing the trade. The two prospects, at this point, are most likely at best back-of-the-roster players, and Gallagher
-well, the moment an organization completely sours on a player, for whatever reason, then all he can be is trade fodder.The thing is that other organizations know this, so his value will drop because they know he’s become roster filler and has no future with the big club. Gallagher was clearly gone, just like Eveland will soon be gone, and it’s just a question of whether the A’s got sufficient return. I agree with Nico that they did: Hairston brings an established bat to the line-up at a time when the team desperately needs another bat if they’re going to trade Holiday. And if they don’t trade Holiday, he brings enough power and speed to the line-up to improve the young pitchers’ chances for the rest of the season.
richwol1 - July 14, 2009
I think you may be a little overly optimistic about a couple of Angels plays Nico.
Aybar’s no more than a league average player, even at shortstop. Vlad, even if he’s healthy enough to contribute with his bat, is clearly on the decline. The Angels will have to choose between a league average right fielder or league average DH with his defense.
rebus - July 14, 2009
I Hate The Angels As Much As Anyone Here...
…but the bottom line stat is wins and that team, no matter who’s hurt or struggling, finds a way to win. Impressive sweep of the Yankees last weekend. F*&$ the Angels!
FurVault - July 14, 2009
Yeah, I don't think Aybar is that good a player,
but I do think he’s a 20 SB guy if played reguarly, and that Vlad is still a 20 HR guy as a DH.
Nico - July 14, 2009
But that's not really the point, is it?
More than a few players hit 20 home runs or steal 20 bases (especially that), without being particularly valuable.
rebus - July 14, 2009
That's because Scioscia has them playing better than their talent level.
< ducks >
iglew - July 14, 2009
(stoops down and shakes your hand because you're right...)
Best manager in MLB today
Gaijin_Suketto - July 14, 2009
Yup, moves like that suicide squeeze last October in Game 4 of the ALDS
really helps the Angels win more games than they should.
Tripp - July 14, 2009
Gallagher
seems to me like the classic $Million Arm/5cent head.
We probably have enough of those in the organization already. Time we got some offense.
BleedGreen - July 14, 2009
+ Avogadro’s number.
carp - July 14, 2009
.
doctorK - July 14, 2009
I like it
I like it because it’s funny, but mostly I like it because I actually get it for once. Although it took me a few moments.
Faust - July 14, 2009
Oh now I get it!
The alarm clock is set to 10:00! HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!
-Cindi
Nico - July 14, 2009
help
I dont understand at all
robbo650 - July 15, 2009
Avogadro's number and moles
From Wikipedia:
Avogadro’s number equals 602,300,000,000,000,000,000,000, give or take a few quadrillion. So you can infer that carp strongly agreed with the comment above his.Faust - July 15, 2009
6.02 x 10^23
you were pretty close, actually. i wouldnt want to have to count 20 zeroes. counting is hard.
SamYam - July 16, 2009
Milo
Someone obviously put a Milo on him
Larry E - July 14, 2009
On offense
the A’s have guys like Bobby Crosby who has a 1cent bat to go along with his 1 cent head so your right the A’s need some offense.
sirbed - July 14, 2009
Hairston a late bloomer
The A’s have missed out on a few late-blooming power-hitters: Nelson Cruz, Carlos Pena and Ryan Ludwick. Maybe Hairston will be the late bloomer that other teams let get away.
BlueMoon - July 14, 2009
+1
nice comment. keep up the good work.
Gaijin_Suketto - July 14, 2009
I agree -- too much can be made of age
as if everyone peaks and declines on the same birthday. That isn’t actually the case.
Nico - July 14, 2009
Of course it's not, silly. Not everybody has the SAME birthday.
mikev - July 14, 2009
I am a horse of course
Future Ed - July 14, 2009
Of course
Is yours August 19th?
muffinpryde - July 14, 2009
Of course, silly.
Everybody’s birthday is August 19th.
Nico - July 14, 2009
No-what YEAR is your birthday?
Why..EVERY year! duh…..
5Aces - July 14, 2009
I like the trade
The A’s have plenty of young starting pitching and Gallagher wasn’t even near the top of the list of young guns on the farm. In Scott Hariston the A’s have gotten something they need a professional hitter.
In recent years this team hasn’t been able to produce much hitting through the farm system outside of Kurt Suzuki so I’m all for trading the surplus of starters for everyday players.
Now lets see if Beane can turn Holliday into a SS or 3B and get this ship sailing in the right direction.
sirbed - July 14, 2009
who's ahead of gallagher in the minors?
streetisclosedin08 - July 14, 2009
Um, Nico,
did you just call making a sale a “bounty”?
Leopold Bloom - July 14, 2009
I did. But according to my dictionary,
boun·ty n
1. a reward of money offered for finding a criminal or other wanted person, or for killing a person or a predator
2. generosity in giving
3. a plentiful or generous supply
Is #3 not correct usage? And anyway, how do you know the service being sold isn’t a hit man? Oh, because more than 1 out of every 20 would be buying, huh?
Nico - July 14, 2009
What dictionary is that?
Usually they give the older definition first, but in yours #1 is definitely the newer.
Personally, I think of #3 as the primary meaning. That’s certainly what it means in religious sermons, which is where I most often hear it. Surely, the Lord’s bounty isn’t the price you get for killing Him.
iglew - July 14, 2009
I got it off the interweb wordtionary thingy
Encarta? I may have put it before the horse-a.
Nico - July 14, 2009
Wow wow wow.
It’s Random House. I’m not familiar with Random House. Have they always eschewed the traditional ordering, or is this a recent development? It’s horrible.
I remember when all the unbranded online dictionaries were American Heritage. I’m not a big fan of AH (especially after the “za” debacle), but at least it’s a real dictionary. I don’t actually use online dictionaries unless I’m on the road, so I haven’t been paying attention, but taking a look tonight, I see that Random House has teamed up with Encarta (=Microsoft) to muscle everyone else off all the search engines.
This bodes ill for civilization.
For anyone out there with whom I have earned any credibility points, and who doesn’t think I’ve gone completely off my rocker: Please do a favor for me and for yourself: Don’t use dictionary.com. Use Yahoo, or The Free Dictionary, or Merriam Webster, or pretty much anything else. But not dictionary.com and not Encarta. It will make you stupid.
iglew - July 15, 2009
I don't like the notion that the A's have 'plenty of good young pitching'
because aside from the guys that are in the majors currently there is pretty much zero depth at starting pitching right now in the minors. The numbers of the starters in the minors are pretty frightening. I’m not really sure who they can actually count on being in the Majors anytime soon so that’s why I’m against giving up on Gallagher because you can never have enough potential starters.
streetisclosedin08 - July 14, 2009
It's true -- the "minor league pitching talent" folks are referring to
is Cahill, Anderson, Mazzaro, and Gio Gonzalez. Though De Los Santos, if he picks up where he left off, could pass a Gallagher by spring training 2010, and I’m not sure Simmons is behind Gallagher even if he’s not ahead of him.
Nico - July 14, 2009
Ynoa, Leon, DLS, and Ross are all talented, but far away obviously.
Someone on here called them stage two guys, the guys who come in after our current rebuild is done, and I tend to agree. There’s also guys like Capra and Banwart who are less talented but putting up decent numbers and showing some promise.
travdog6 - July 14, 2009
and do we really need much more young pitching?
as a general rule, the answer is usually yes. But look at our long-term rotation: Braden, Anderson, Outman, Mazzaro, Cahill. With Gio and Egon to fill in. Simmons might be ready sooner rather than later. And, the previously mentioned guys like Ynoa and DLS who are further away. I’m just saying that the rotation is pretty much set for the next 5 years. An extra arm or two to fill in for injurious is needed, but there’s Gio et al for that. I just don’t see the lack of high-quality starters at AA/AAA as being a big problem.
Kallus - July 14, 2009
If you think the A's supply of good pitching is scant,
what must you think of the A’s supply of good hitting? Surely it is worse.
iglew - July 14, 2009
1/scant?
Nico - July 14, 2009
The A's DO have 'plenty of good young pitching'
Not so much at the Stockton or Midland levels, but yes, in Oakland.
Dallas Braden will have about 2 years ML service time at the end of 2009, Gio will have a bit more than half a year if he sticks with Oakland the rest of the season, Anderson and Cahill will have one year each, Mazzaro will have less than a year, and Outman, when and if he comes back, will have about a half a year. Simmons is also a possibility, and his service clock hasn’t even started. That is a lot of pitching under team control for the next 4-6 years.
Nate - July 15, 2009
But you can always have too few, reliable outfielders.
We have plenty of pitching and little outfield depth that can make an immediate impact on the major league level. Our starters will be fine for years to come and trading one of them away to net a solid outfielder makes plenty of sense to me.
Boonee - July 14, 2009
Can Geren pitch?
Re-sign Crosby, he hit a homerun last night!!!!
5 years $200 million>
This is my favorite fan-post ever…
MMunoz33 - July 18, 2009
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