Athletics Nation

Can we not turn a nice win-discussion into an Urban meta-thread?

That already happened once recently.

hey, he's the one who started it...

;-)

Duke is awesome!

Definitely softens the sting of losing Harden. I still think the trade is OK, just don’t think Harden will stay healthy. I’d give him 20% chance of staying healthy the remainder of the season.

BTW, I think DFA is starting to look better, good catch in today’s game too.

Okay

So can we now say, pretty much universally, that it makes buckko sense to lock up The Duke for at least the next three years? This man is the ultimate diamond in the rough and he “wants” to stay in Oakland!!!!!!!!!!

Billy, please….........get the man inked to a long term deal now!

I'm up for three years - that only takes him to age 33

and he’s a guy who doesn’t rely on fastball velocity. His back has not been an issue since starting, and as a veteran presence on a young team his value will exceed whatever numbers he puts up.

Thank you Nico!

I rest my case…....Duke for 3 years guaranteed plus an option year for a 4th. What else does the man have to do to prove himself??

Spend a full season healthy?

Spend a full season healthy?

beaux coups?

Buck Turgidson - July 8, 2008 reply

no, I think he meant "bukkake sense"

As in, giving even a medium-term solid-money commitment to an aging pitcher with serious health issues could end up all over our face.

BQOTM

Blue…

hilarious

Buck Turgidson - July 8, 2008 reply

......

My son, I’m not touching that with a thirty-foot pole. Next question.

not even with 5 Pierzynskis?

How fast are the Pierzynskis travelling?

Supersonic I hope.

MobiusKlein - July 8, 2008 reply

French for what Duchscherer throws.

Trad....

Urban just recommended trading Blanton, Street and Buck

for Matt Holiday.

ohtobe21likehuston - July 8, 2008 reply

Please to not

SOMEBODY SET US UP THE TRADE

All your Buck are… oh, never mind.

I don't understand how that trade really helps either team going forward

Colorado doesn’t want guys a year or two away from free agency for Holliday. The A’s could certainly use that bat, but they’d never give him the big extension he’d want (if he didnt just test FA outright).

What a weird idea.

thejd44 - July 8, 2008 reply

Duke is the freaking truth

What a fun gem to watch.

OaktownPower - July 8, 2008 reply

Re: Duke Extension

2 years, club option for a 3rd. Whatever market value for a guy like him is is fine. I figure around $7 mil per year (2009 will be his last arby year).

By 2011, the year that option would kick in, the A’s expect to have a bunch of guys either in the rotation or knocking on the door. This gives them the flexibility to keep Duke if he’s awesome, let him go if he’s not, etc. It doesn’t tie them down for too many years for a guy who isn’t young. And it gives Duke 2 or 3 years of security. Maybe even make it a mutal option for that third year.

The talk of giving him more than 3 years is a bad idea, I think. Another extension can always be given later, but tying up a 30something pitcher for almost a half decade is just too risky, especially when the pipeline is full of guys.

thejd44 - July 8, 2008 reply

Let's not forget

The dude is 30. I love him too, but there’s no reason to believe he’s going to get much better, or even maintain this performance.

I love his pitching this year, but he has had some recurring injury issues in the past. Pretty risky to sign long term.

Crosbino - July 8, 2008 reply

he'll be happy with that...

so, will we. But, his trade value is so HIGH. I think we should move him.

DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE!

You Bastard!!!!!

Be glad I'm computer illiterate

and don’t know where to find a flag…

oaklandSMASH - July 8, 2008 reply

Good thing you're not patriotic

If you were patriotic, you'd find it on your lapel

Thanks Tex

3-2 over LAAA. 5 games back!

Die Doomsayer! Die!

5 games back at this point is nothing.

if your team is better than, or at least nearly as good as, the team in front...

our run differential says we're better...

much better, actually. So, die doomsayers!

let's agree to remind each other of this exchange a few months from now

haha...

let’s… when your Angels go on a scoring binge. Good luck.

no need to get nasty ("your Angels")!

hehe...

I thought that was a nice coup de grâce. But, really, do you think they’ll out-score us by the end of the season? I think not.

I think they'll outscore us where it matters, the win column..

almost half a season left...

to find out. That’s why I like baseball. Long seasons.

Beane says the trade makes us better today

So there.

I believe him

We'll see

If we DFA DFA and replace with Murton, that’s a big improvement.

If Gallagher beats his PECOTA projection (5+ ERA/1.5 WHIP) and becomes a legit starter we don’t lose much over Harden

So it could well be. I’m still iffy on that second one, but I’m doing a DFA dance as we speak.

I suspect Gallagher will do better

than his projection. The A’s really like him and they know what they’re doing. And they targeted him because they felt he was major-league ready now.

Wonder why we didnt wait and see what st louis was goign to give us

Beane probably did, and found that

1. Harden wasn’t going to command, from anyone, nearly as much as AN thought or hoped.
2. The Cubs would offer the most.

anyone who thought another team...

was going to back up the truck for Harden was smokin’ the same crack pipe as Amy Wino.

That's not quite fair -

A desperate team (feeling the pressure of making a move) + a tremendous talent can yield a lopsided deal in the right moment.

I suppose it's possible...

but, with younger, more computer savvy GM’s (and, idiots like Bavasi out of the game), less and less likely.

I think the Mulder deal was largely panic

They could have done better to run with Haren as is – he was ready to start and emerge within a year – and they offered way too much for someone who was already showing signs of decline.

that's true...

they obviously didn’t run the same number (if any) of computer simulations as the A’s did. My point exactly. They relied on their scouts. Them eyes.

Uhh,

if they relied on their scouts, surely they would have seen what many A’s fans, who watched Mulder pitched throughout 2004, saw. All the big honking red flags, the decrease in stuff, velocity.

rfloh - July 8, 2008 reply

fans always know their own players...

better than scouts.

FoolshGame22 - July 9, 2008 reply

ahh, the great playoff miss of 2004

ak_A - July 9, 2008 reply

Disagree

If Mulder was right-handed, I doubt Cardinals would have made that trade. St. Louis had long sought a solid left-handed starter and at the time, Mulder was considered the best lefty starter available, even though his numbers were beginning to show signs of decline. What happened to Mulder injury-wise in St. Louis coupled with Haren’s success and Harden’s injury history probably made the Cardinals a bit gun-shy for Harden. I think Marshall, being a big-league ready left-hander-though I think an average one, was the keystone. Decent lefties have the highest value in MLB and you typically have to pay more (in money or tradable talent) than they are really worth-unless they are like Steve Carlton or Andy Pettitte.

RedbirdattheBeach - July 8, 2008 reply

Haren v. Gallagher

Haren (Traded @ Age 24) – Minor League Stats

474.2 – IP
3.15 – ERA
8.77 – K/9
1.13 – WHIP
1.63 – BB/9
0.89 – HR/9

Gallagher (Age 22) – Minor League Stats

481 – IP
2.77 – ERA
9.02 – K/9
1.24 – WHIP
3.52 – BB/9
0.49 – HR/9

The BB/9 are a little worrisome for Gallagher, but he’s only 22 years old. And it looks like Gallagher keeps the ball down, and induces more groundballs than Haren.

Colorado Fan - July 8, 2008 reply

oops

got my “Sean’s” mixed up: SCrubs gave up Gallagher, a rightey, not Marshall the lefty … still, I just don’t get it from Oakland’s perspective … they should have got more than the mediocrity for two good (one great when healthy) pitchers … sickening … even if Gallagher turns out to be decent, I still say Oakland got taken on this one.

RedbirdattheBeach - July 8, 2008 reply

Nico give me soem info

So why Couldnt we get vitters in the deal and why did we take this deal?

I have no idea who we could have gotten,

and who we wanted more than whom. Maybe Vitters wasn’t on the table, maybe it was him or Gallagher and the A’s think Gallagher is better – only Beane knows and he ain’t talking.

I know vitters is real young and has a ways to go

hes third basemen which we need. I just think if you look at weeks and patterson there similiar players

Apart from the part about Weeks not sucking

Patterson doesn't "suck"

He’s raw, probably immature. Looking at his scouting profile, he reminded me a lot of Cano – one could do worse. In any event, if Weeks and Patterson are redundant, maybe one of them gets dealt to get us a bat, another pitcher, etc. at some point in the next couple years.

Cano was starting (and hitting) in the majors at age 22

Patterson has been unable to beat out Mark DeRosa and Ryan Fontenot for a job at age 25.

Bit of a difference. Besides, Cano is actually a plus fielder according to the various zone ratings.

Along the lines of the "tallest midget" argument seen here earlier

(i.e., netting the Cubs’ “top prospects” is akin to being the “tallest midget”)...

Holding it against a player for not being properly used by the Cubs isn’t really a knock on him, it just reaffirms that the Cubs are so far up their own asses that they need a glass belt buckle to see.

For what it’s worth, Baseball Prospectus thinks he’s a big-leaguer.

And Sickels has him as a "B" grade

Maybe he won’t be any good, but he’s definitely a prospect.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/stats/player.php?id=502232

Patterson is definitely no Cano

The key isue is whether he can play 2b adequately. His minor league numbers are decent for a 2b.

rfloh - July 8, 2008 reply

Was Vitters orig with Oakland??

According to Baseball America, Vitters use to play at single A, Cane County.

sf drift king - July 9, 2008 reply

Josh Vitters' brother

(Christian) is in the A’s system

day-to-day - July 9, 2008 reply

Y not Vitters in this deal

Then you keep him

And see if the market improves during the offseason.

The counter argument: He gets hurt again and you don’t get much in return for him.

Counter to that: They didn’t get much in return for him (and Gaudin) in the first place, so how would waiting really be worse?

thejd44 - July 9, 2008 reply

Counter to that

They got a promising 22 year old MLB pitcher and someone to play LF who is one of our 3 best hitters. We also got someone who can play 2B next year if we can’t keep Ellis. Oh and a prospect Catcher who was highly regarded before struggling some this year.

Counter to that

We’ve already got a ton of promising pitchers, that LF isn’t even being put on the 25 man roster, and the 2B is an awful fielder and was on the bench in favor of Mark DaRosa.

Another phrase that needs banning

if we can’t keep Ellis

There isn’t any “if” about this. The A’s can keep Ellis. If they choose not to, it wasn’t because of some irresistible cosmic fate, it’s because they didn’t want to frigging re-sign him.

PaulThomas - July 9, 2008 reply

Cubs were the only team

talking Harden. No other teams, according to Billy.
The A’s wanted Gallagher. Otherwise no deal. Apparently Gallagher was the reason it took “weeks” to come around.. A’s have “liked” Gallagher for some time.

One won lost won - July 8, 2008 reply

In one of the other threads, someone said

St Louis was asking for Swooney along with Harden.

Murton replaces Brown immediately...

regardless of whether Brown is DFA’d or not. Although, I don’t see how he couldn’t be, but… maybe Billy will find a taker for another prospect. Who knows?

Brown - >

another huge two out hit tonite….

Hot Cup Joe - July 8, 2008 reply

Isn't that

his first hit since, like, May?

Technically he had one in June

when he hit a routine roller to second and Carlos Gonzalez ran out onto the field and let it carom off his leg.

Does

CarGo get an assist for that?

Strangely, the assist was

given to John Lucas.

Dude

this game is rigged. You know the umpires are hired and policed by the league, right?

buzz kill

I literally

stopped what I was doing and looked at the television in shock (complete with agape mouth) when he got a hit with a RiSP. Two outs, even.

I did too, which was odd because

what I was doing was watching the game.

EXACTLY

Me too, which makes no sense. You’re watching the game, something normal and routine happens and you’re shocked.

Um, this probably doesn’t bode well for Email’s future with our (thanks, Hawk!) club, does it?

btw... independent rant (not related to your post in any derogatory way)...

but, those who complain about those of “us,” and I include myself among them, who refer to the A’s as “us” and “we,” well… I and we pay their fuckin’ salaries (even though we don’t write the checks); we wear their names on the back of our shirts; we have our kids get their autographs. So, to those who are offended by “we” or “us” when fans refer to the A’s… fuck you!

Okay, I’m done.

That's funny

My boss pays my salary, but he doesn’t usually refer to me as “we.”

you must not work for microsoft or...

any other big corporation.

Oh

I kind of agree with you, and especially the “us” as ANers, but I love making fun of Hawk. He’s an idiot and this is a softball.

Oh, don't get me wrong...

I hate Hawk as much as the next A’s fan, but using an outlier idiot like him to exclude all reasonable fans is like… is like… ummm… using… I can’t think of a good analogy.

Cosigned.

The "us" and "we" thing doesn't bother me per se

But it always sounded silly.

What bothers me more is something I heard over the weekend when I was wearing a Patriots jersey: “You guys ruined my Super Bowl Sunday, you know that?”

My response: I’m not on the team. I was just sitting at home watching the game.

thejd44 - July 9, 2008 reply

Galt loves grapes, too...

oh… agape. Nevermind.

Gault?

This is Speedy Willie and he’s world class. He likes the run, but he loves to get the pass.

He was just shuffling through, you know. Next to Walter, in case you didn’t know…

Curt Young

just said “Shit” in his post-game interview

SwampyD - July 8, 2008 reply

"What he's been doin', shit, the last 7 starts..."

Hilarious.

ohtobe21likehuston - July 8, 2008 reply

Yeah

Me and my girl caught that “blooper” as well. Fucking hilarious!!!!!! Go Curt!

Let me guess the context:

Hey Curt, we just traded Harden and Gaudin for Sean Gallagher!

“Shit”

You kidding?

If Gallagher pans out, Young gets huge props. It’s a real opportunity for him (and proof we trust him)

Yep.

I’m kidding.

I realize that this trade looks pretty sweet the moment Rich Harden falls out of bed.

Really?

But Chad Gaudin is better than anybody the A’s got in the deal, too. The A’s gave up the TWO best players.

Unelss Matt Murton starts hitting 30 homers a year, I don’t see this trade ever being better than a wash for Oakland.

thejd44 - July 9, 2008 reply

As far as present value I'd rank the players:

Harden (until he gets injured)
Gallagher
Gaudin
Murton
Catcher Guy
Patterson

And I don’t think Gallagher vs. Gaudin is even very close

Gallagher is league average in a bad league

Gaudin is well above average in a good league.

Right now, Gaudin is quite a bit better. In three years, that might not be the case.

thejd44 - July 9, 2008 reply

Gallagher also pitched in

Wrigley fricken field. And Gaudin in out way pitcher friendly park.

Syphon - July 9, 2008 reply

In Our* way

Syphon - July 9, 2008 reply

22 year olds tend to make "leaps and bounds"

more quickly and often than guys who are “league-age”. Gaudin will probably do fine in the NL, serving as a solid #3-#4 or quality reliever. But to think of Gallagher stepping it up to be a solid #3 right now, even though he hasn’t been for the Cubs so far, is not a stretch.

Exactly

22, league minimum for the next several years, and pitching in one of the most hitter-skewed parks in the league still has an acceptable ERA.

Far more valuable than Gaudin + his 1.7M salary + his Coliseum/Defense aided stats.

Pretty much!

Could not believe it when I heard it so I hit rewind and it was still, “Shit!”.

"Sheeeeeeeeeee-yit"

EddieVegas_NRAF - July 8, 2008 reply

CLAY!

Doesn’t he represent Maryland’s 10th District?

I recognize this reference

Hooray for small victories.

IOTM!

Poppy, I hope you’re paying attention.

thejd44 - July 9, 2008 reply

I heard that too

I couldn’t trust my own ears there, but that definitely was a ‘shite’.

doctorK - July 8, 2008 reply

We've had years and years of this stupid seven-second delay

and the one time someone utters an obscenity it still gets on the air—and it’s a middle-aged employee of the A’s organization.

Englishmajor - July 8, 2008 reply

"C'mon, Curt - use the 'Preview' function!"

Fuck that!

Shit!

I can think of no better way to usher in the post-Harden era...

Duke was King tonight. This game helped remind me what the A’s are about, have been about and will be about – PITCHING.

Harden – we hardly knew you, I can’t believe you only had 36 wins for the A’s…it feels like you were here forever. Gaudin – you’re welcome. The A’s resurected your career after TB and TOR tried to destoy it. Good luck to you both!

Good luck

To the Cubs!

I, by contrast, can now root AGAINST the Cubs

since they have now combined my natural dislike of Harden with stealing him in a trade.

Isn't that like

rooting against the Washington Generals?

You root FOR the Washington Generals?

dude

you eat pieces of shit for breakfast?

And besides, if the Warriors traded Monta Ellis

to the Washington Generals for… for… well, for any of the Washington Generals, hell yes I’d root against them.

Good man

I like your fire, the cut of your gib…you’ll go far in the firm, Thomas, mark my words….

Is it gib or jib?

I’m a little behind on my Pirate Lingo classes.

I was actually playing lawyer there,

but since you’ve mistaken my lawyer impression with pirate, perhaps I should give up the play-acting altogether…

Arrrrrrgghhh! Me can't be writin' much with me hook for a hand.

Alas, me spellin’ suffers.

thejd44 - July 9, 2008 reply

Arrrrrrrrrgghhh!!!

Me have steering wheel embedded in groin, and it’s driving me nuts!!!

Har!

BTW...Dan Meyer 2 hit shutout through 8 for Sac.

Bonus BTW: James Simmons

James Simmons
Midland (AA)
Another 8 IP of shutout ball (2 Straight Outings)

8 IP
2 Hits
0 ER
11 K

Colorado Fan - July 8, 2008 reply

Murton

Anyone else worried that Matt Murton is a glorified Bobby Kielty? Please tell me I’m wrong but I looked at their numbers at the same point in their careers and they’re pretty similar.

What worries me is this: Kielty looked GREAT in limited action when he was on the Twins, and if you projected his numbers to a full season, he was projected to hit 30 homers or something. I’m afraid that Murton is the same kinda deal. In limited action, he performs, but when put out there everyday (like Kielty often was for us) he gets exposed.

Anyone see the similarity? Please tell me Murton is going to outperform Kietly. Please …

Crosbino - July 8, 2008 reply

Murton

always struck me more as a right-handed Travis Buck, only a little more consistent.

Murton's career line

against RHP is .282/.346/.422 (.768 OPS).

That’s awfully solid, considering that his career line against LHP is a truly solid .316/.389/.494 (.882 OPS).

Yep

He’s just plain better than Kielty. I’ve wanted him for awhile

okay, I'll tell you that you're wrong...

Murton is going to be a stud for us in LF. Allowing Cust to concentrate on DHing (because Frank ain’t comin’ back), which will allow Cust to hit 40 HR’s in the second half. Feel better?

Yes

That makes me feel better. Only 40 homers in the second half for Cust?

Crosbino - July 8, 2008 reply

Murton won't be a stud IN LF though

He’s not much defensively. He’s gonna need to sustain his limited time numbers to be a truly valuable (as opposed to 4th/5th OF) player.

thejd44 - July 9, 2008 reply

With Cust DHing

He’s an everyday starter for us. He’ll never be a superstar, but he isn’t platoon-only either.

If we don’t DFA DFA soon I’m going to assume there’s a compromising picture of Beane involved

I love Duke

And I was assuming I would see either him or Harden dealt. To be quite frank, I’m glad it’s Harden. I get tired of chewing my nails down to their cuticles every time Rich pitches waiting for him to go down. I honestly hope that he does remain healthy and help the Cubs win because I did love the guy. But rooting for him was exhausting because you were always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

As for Duke, I just love the guy. He’s cerebral. He’s all about control. And he’s all about succeeding despite not having the greatest natural gifts. He doesn’t have the same ability to throw the occasional mistake that a Harden does, so I’ve always loved him pitching. It’s why Jennifer, Sharon and I share tattoos on our rear ends that spell out Duchschererererererer.

Tyler Bleszinski - July 8, 2008 reply

Beane give him his money

Hey... Duke-ay... Baby, I got ya money, don'tcha worry

+1

couldda been Duke in today’s trade.

How exactly do

you, Jennifer, and Sharon share the same tatt—

You know, never mind. I don’t really want to know.

We might havve been the first ones on the Duke bandwagon.

How long ago has that been?

Jennifer - July 8, 2008 reply

Well, let's see, what are you now, 57?

That was Chad's number.

[sob]

Jennifer - July 8, 2008 reply

Who's Chad?

Just practicing.

Didn't we used to have

some guy on our team named Chad…?

No, we had someone FROM Chad

I think his name was Michel, but he went by Garcia to get into this country.

Inoa

heard it somewhere before….

Harville?

Chads

We actually had two Chads on the team AT THE SAME TIME, Bradford and Harville. Which seemed a statistical improbability.

DCinWC - July 9, 2008 reply

Remember when 80% of the roster was named Chad or Mark?

remember Beane binging on "K____" players?

monkeyball - July 9, 2008 reply

Bradford!

But I like Ziggy more.

thejd44 - July 9, 2008 reply

ahem

You rule

Monkey. We all bow to your prowess and power.

It’s your world Monkey. The rest of us are merely renting space.

speaking of which, where's my check?

didn't your personal assistant tell you?

Well, I was in a car wreck late last week. I was taking my mother-in-law to the doctor’s office, when all of a sudden one of those big, scary SUVs pulled out in front of on the 580. I was drinking my Starbucks-you know I like the quad espresso with the non-fat foam kinda lopped on top of it. The baristas keep telling me it’s basically machiatto, but screw that! I’m not ordering no “machiatto”-the next thing you know I’ll be wearing ballet shoes and blowing guys behind the 7-11-so anyways, we’re driving along and all of a sudden, this mountain of a car jumps out in front of us. I totally freak! I jerk in reaction and throw my quad shot right in Mom’s face. So she’s screaming and flailing her arms and cursing me—she actually said I told my daughter not to marry you, you insane little dwarf! I mean, I’m not even short! Where the hell does she get off telling me that I’m short? I’m like 5’10” or close to it, how is that even close to short? So she’s obviously in pain and not loving her son-in-law at this point, but she’s being a total spaz and I’m like driving on 580 and she’s screaming and wailing and flailing and all this other stuff, right? And i’m trying to avoid this tank going 65 in front of me. And he’s on his cell phone, just talking a blue streak, not a care in the world, and of course he’s still got his Starbucks, the bastard. So I roll down the window and I’m flipping him the bird and telling him how his lifestyle choices have negatively affected three generations of my family and his automotive choices are bound to affect the lives of my many seed cast throughout the land. That’s when I get a text message from Barbara, not Barbara Kenton, mind you, but Barbara Shirrell, the one that works at that clinic I took you to that time, the one I promised never to tell anyone about at all…

someone should have informed me that macchiatos are a gateway drug

disturbing

throw my quad shot right in Mom’s face.

cvdoug - July 8, 2008 reply

Given that this was Starbucks

you could call it a money shot.

We're back

to bukake, aren’t we? Freud would have had a field day with my free write…

Leopold Bloom - July 9, 2008 reply

I don't believe you.

Not even Thunderbutt has a rear end that wide.

The great thing about a guy like Duke,

as opposed to a guy like Harden, is that even if he doesn’t have his best stuff during a start he can still get by with what got him here; pinpoint control. Guys like Harden can’t get through those kinds of starts because their control just isnt as good. Take Harden’s last couple starts for example; his stuff isn’t as sharp (“dead arm”) and he wobbles almost uncontrollably because he can’t hit his spots. With Duke you’re always comfortable with him pitching because he can make hitters look silly with an 87 mph “fast”ball when he continually paints the black. Three cheers for Duke!

Helloooo 1st - July 8, 2008 reply

I present to you... King Duke

He’s a Duke and a King now!

IowaA'sFan - July 8, 2008 reply

Oh my GOD, You chopped Duke's head off!

He’s not cerebral any more!

Tyler Bleszinski - July 8, 2008 reply

Can I get two BK Broilers and a small Pepsi?

{shouts into Kielty’s mouth}

{shouts into Kielty’s mouth}

That is freaking hilarious, and by far the funniest thing I’ve read in awhile.

Scottbass - July 8, 2008 reply

that makes my night too

(sad to say)

ak_A - July 8, 2008 reply

QOTM

so it’s findable.

oblique - July 8, 2008 reply

thanks...

that’s the hardest i’ve laughed reading something on the internet in ages.

simbiant - July 9, 2008 reply

Well, it was hastily done

without a proper photo editing program. Long live the king!

IowaA'sFan - July 8, 2008 reply

I was just kidding

It just struck me as funny. He kind of looked like Terrence and Philip from South Park. with their heads separating when they talk.

Tyler Bleszinski - July 8, 2008 reply

Can I kill Kenny?

(Rogers)

AN has such a plethora of hilarious posters...

way more than any other blog. Of course, my opinion is skewed by the fact that I don’t read any other blogs, but, I’m sure it’s true.

That comment is SO you!

Of course I’ve never met you, but I’m sure it’s true.

I'd like to meet Cindi...

she’s got the better personality.

FWIW, Cindi's main reaction to you is,

“There’s no i to dot! ???”

There's an i in Mike

FYI.

That's why I like her...

unattainable.

Wait? Cindi "has a nice personality"??

Oh

My god! You had to say that!

He said:

“Uncle Fucker!”

And

ass ramming cock blaster?

MobiusKlein - July 8, 2008 reply

A's SPs today

Duke: 9IP 2H 4K 0BB
Meyer: 8 IP 2H 8 K 0BB(A great sign; if he finds his command maybe there’s a teeny tiny bit of hope)
Simmons: 8 IP 2 H 11K 0BB

As for hitting, not so many great signs. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Duke but I really think that if we can get two major hitting prospects/young sluggers (AND ONLY THEN), hopefully MI ones we should look into trading him. Duke and Street for Brignac and Upton? If not, can we at least please go after Dallas MacPherson? I’m one of Donnie Murphy’s biggest fans but he and Hannahan are killing us.

Since Ellis has been pretty healthy recently how about a couple of tries at SS if his arm can stand it? We could then play Patterson at 2b and I would not have to worry about Ellie being traded.

vignette17 - July 8, 2008 reply

no way ellis has the arm to play SS, Crosby made sure of that in 2005.

Oooh, that's cold

Burn!

Anything regarding Frank Thomas and the MRI?

I was at the Angels and Rangers game tonight

I talk to Mathis and he said he was shocked about the trade

It was the Angels who thought Harden was hurt

I would think they would be the least surprised of anyone.

Geren said Frank is cleared to hit in the post game interview

Why do we need him to hit in the post game interview?

LOL

They need him to clear out the horde of local reporters

demanding to know why the team is trading away major leaguers for minor leaguers again.

If there are a horde of reporters at an a's event

stop the presses (the intertubes?) – that’s the story….

Hot Cup Joe - July 8, 2008 reply

I thought that's what you wanted them to do...

Billy is only obliging.

Wow

Relentless on the Harden/Gaudin for Gallagher/Murton/Donaldson Trade. I bet you would have taken this trade on the majority of the dates below…

Disabled List: [May 15,2005] – 15 Day Disabled list – (strained left oblique muscle) [Jun 21,2005] – Activated [Apr 28,2006] – 15 Day Disabled list – (muscle strain in his back) [Jun 4,2006] – Activated [Jun 8,2006] – 15 Day Disabled list – (sprained ligament in his right elbow) [Sep 21,2006] – Activated [Apr 23,2007] – 15 Day Disabled list – (Right shoulder) [Jun 21,2007] – [Jul 12,2007] – 15 Day Disabled list – (Right shoulder inflammation) [Aug 22,2007] – Transferred to 60 day DL. [April 10, 2008] Placed Rich Harden on the 15-day disabled list, retroactive to April 3;

I know you wanted Colby Rasmus, but c’mon. That wasn’t even close to happening.

Colorado Fan - July 8, 2008 reply

How about just ONE guy who projects to be a good everyday position player

Just one.

thejd44 - July 9, 2008 reply

Jamie throws such a nice softball!!!

Yea there was delay cause of storms

Mathis was just chillen, he said there glad hes out fo the Al west with a laugh

Anyone saw Geren's post game interview

Talking about Duke’s game, he was smiling like the kids with the coolest toy. He knows he’s got a good one to hand the ball to.

So is Emil Brown gone or what

Is Gio goign to coem up?

Gio is not ready IMO

Some of his AAA starts are flat out terrible. He needs more seasoning I would think. Looks like he is either lights out or they blow his lights out. He is a good one though so lets hope for the future.

Please god yes

and no. Gallagher is #5 now

Dude, you're a dyslexic typist

Goes well with m-m-mmmy st-st-stttttt-st-sttutter.

Gallagher to start Fri against LAAA

Wow, speaking of tossing the kid into the deep end of the pool. This being such an unpopular trade with the fans, he better have a good outing. I feel for the kid already.

His mental toughness has been praised -

I guess it will be tested early.

I was praised for mental toughness...

til the teacher made me cry.

I used to piss my teachers off

I got 4 detentions in one day out of 5 classes.

English, Science, Math and Phys Ed.

That was many, many years ago back in NZ. I used to work for a horse trainer and later on owned my own horses and would work the horses after school and give one of my teacher’s tips and he would bet them. I could get away with murder in that class.

You? Trainman? Pissed people off?

But you’re so mild and sweet-tempered.

http://boards.espn.go.com/boards/mb/mb?sport=mlb&id=general&tid=3071204&lid=1

wow, welcome to the AL west.

ak_A - July 8, 2008 reply

LOL at this response on MLB Board

Wow

That guy’s mother must hang out at a lot of truck stops.

ESPN already got a cubs hat on Harden's mug shot

That is cold!

No!

Lode! I feel like I’ve lost my best freind.

It's just wrong....

anomaly_kat - July 8, 2008 reply

And we'll be looking at Murton in a Cubs hat until 2012...

... when he leaves for the White Sox.

Did we just win back to back games without walking?

yeah

apparently timely hitting and smart base running can win games too, who knew?

Just goes to show you don't have to walk to get on base and win

Of course having a complete game from your pitcher helps.

technically your pitchers just make sure you don't lose a game

and needs help from offense to win the games for them, unless if you are in NL and the pitcher hits a game winning HR.

The Duke

So apropo, before the break, and the ASB.

The A's scored 2 runs tonight

Would’ve helped to have more guys on base. They won because Duke didn’t allow Mariners to score. It’s impossible to lose in that situation.

thejd44 - July 9, 2008 reply

It also helps a lot

to face two not-very-good pitchers who throw lots of strikes, supported by a terrible offense.

http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080708&content_id=3092594&vkey=news_oak&fext=.jsp&c_id=oak

BB defends Harden trade....

I can imagine BB's talk when the Gallagher kid gets in town

“You better go out there and make me look good.”

"You're stealing my money! Just like Kielty did!"

now

THAT’S funny.

Haha! Can't even load that

story. Is everyone in here trying to read that right now?

Murton ticketed for Sacramento?

That’s ridiculous. He should immediately be made our starting LF for the rest of the season.

jeepers - July 9, 2008 reply

They need to figure out how best to deal with DFA first

At least that’s what I’m hoping to god is true.

The more I think about it and analyze it

The more I am okay with this trade. The minor league/major league numbers of the guys we got are pretty solid, if unspectacular. We weren’t going to get top talent with Harden’s injury problems. Harden’s significant lost velocity combined with his injury history is a red flag. What if he has a dead arm the rest of the season? Can we afford not to trade him now? We are 5 games back of the Angels still and with our injury concerns, it looks like they will run away with the division. We can still remain competitive, but I think we took advantage of the opportunity to get younger and improve depth even more with all these injuries.

Gaudin is a throw in. He would’ve been in the rotation with Harden gone, but now that we have Gallagher, we get a little younger and more potential in the process. Remember that Gaudin wasn’t nearly the prospect that Gallagher was and we turned him into a solid major league starter. We have so many young arms coming up that Gaudin has almost no value for us going forward. Cahill, Simmons, et al. will be ready next year and there’s no point in keeping Gaudin.

Murton is a solid hitter (~.800 OPS, great compared to our other corner outfield options) and will be the RH platoon guy Emil Brown was supposed to be. I like him as a 4th outfielder who gets 350 ABs a season.

Donaldson had great numbers last year (1.000+ OPS, that’s crazy) but has struggled mightily this year. He’s still somewhat young at 22, although he’s too old to struggle at A ball. He’s a flyer pick, and if he works out we’ll be calling Beane a genius. He’s got a great bat, he’s just had an uncharacteristically bad year.

I like Gallagher the best; good young arm who has maintained solid progression so far through the minors. Good WHIP, solid K/9 and K/BB rates. He’s gotten less hittable as he’s progressed in age. And he’s only 22. Very nice under the radar pickup. Just another young arm to add to the stable.

Patterson is a meh throw in. He’s got speed and some decent pop, but hasn’t shown terrific on base skills and I don’t really think he’ll be any better than a .750 OPS guy in the majors. He’s a utility guy at best but a better option than Murphy or Hannahan. He’ll be a stopgap at 2B between Ellis and Weeks.

The entire trade makes sense, it just takes awhile to get there because some of the talent is still relatively unproven compared to two major league arms in Gaudin and Harden. There is a definite plan here, and Beane looks like he knows what he’s doing yet again.

I fully expect Blanton to be gone next for some insurance options at SS and 3B.

baseb3383 - July 8, 2008 reply

Can we get a viable option at SS

if we package Blanton and Bobby? Maybe the Cards want pitching now…

The Cards have nothing at shortstop, not even in their system.

Cesar Izturis? Aaron Miles? Brendan Ryan?

Not any better than Crosby, and in a lot of ways worse.

Cesar Izturis is arguably better than Crosby

because his contract expires sooner.

In that case,

Johnnie LeMaster for MVP!!!

If Bobby Crosby hurts his (fill in the blank)

and there’s no one there to see it, does it really happen?

We may have an opportunity to find out

during the remainder of the season.

What if a tree falls on him in the forest?

Then PT

cut it and I pushed it over on him.

I think Crosby

has more trade value, though.

than Izturis I mean.

What makes me ok with it is knowing that

the minor leaguers, as a group, are probably better than I think because the A’s really know who to target. And I think Murton will be a good addition to the lineup right now.

If Patterson can be a 750 OPS

guy in MLB, while playing average D, that’s a league average 2b, not a utility infielder.

His minor league numbers are solid. Except for 37 PAs in 2005 in AA in the Southern at age 22, he’s been above the league average OPS for his league, every year, at every level, in the minors.

His on base skills aren’t terrific, but he isn’t a Jeff Francoeur either. His career OBP is 365. Except for those 37 PAs in 2005, his OBP in the minors has been above the league average in every season, at every level.

rfloh - July 8, 2008 reply

Where is this "average D" talk coming from?

So PT Do you like Murton?

I think he should be in LF ASAP. Just would like your take on him.

I'm not high on him at all

The trend in his stats is all downward. He may be a guy who peaked at a young age.

I agree he’s better than the alternatives, but I’d be looking for an upgrade stat in the offseason.

I really don’t like this package. At all. There’s no player here with even a semblance of major-league upside except the A-ball catcher.

I dont hate the deal...

Gallagher looks like a good young arm. He could be good in our park. Murton Id like see in LF over Brown. Patterson is just insurance for Ellis. And the catcher is a high risk/high reward throw in.

All in all its not great but its prob the best deal out there. If there was a better deal then Im sure Beane woulda taken it.

You know

I really do respect your opinions as they are almost always well-informed, if nothing else.

So I’m scared. Someone, hold me.

Leopold Bloom - July 9, 2008 reply

Murton to start in AAA

Now THAT'S weird -

We couldn’t use a hitter right now whose career batting average is better than Emil Brown’s on base percentage?

I think it would be a good idea to bring these guys up

a bit at a time.

Let the team get used to a new player and let him get used to the squad and then bring in the next guy.

Furthermore, more trades might be coming. Perhaps they might use Murton in another deal, thus dumping Emil Brown might not be wise if they are going to trade Murton.

Also, I wrote a long post today (useless considering the big news was coming down the pike later on) that dealt with the hitters. The team may still be deciding on whom to keep etc.

Last was there any news on Thomas injury. This might impact the decision on who to keep.

Come on

These guys aren’t new pets that we’re introducing to our existing pets, these are fairly grown men. You can bring Gallagher and Murton along at the same time and there won’t be a culture shock of (GASP!) putting two new guys on the roster. I’m pretty sure that happens all the time.

Helloooo 1st - July 8, 2008 reply

like the old Red Sox clubhouse saying in the '70s and '80s

“25 guys, 25 litter boxes”

Waiting to DFA Brown I think

I have an illogical suspicion that the A’s won’t DFA their leading RBI guy and Brown is still it. Brown is trying hard to give the title away, but Cust is trying harder not to take it. Brown screwed up by adding to his RBI total tonight, so the Murton kid has to cool his heels in AAA for a while.

O.K. Another thought.

A poster wrote that Geren said in the interview after the game that “Thomas was cleared to hit after today’s MRI”. Thus, if he is back soon it would probably push Cust back into the LF spot. Thus, there might not be room on the roster for E. Brown or Murton.

Possible explanation.

Where did you read this?

Chronicle

If thats the case them Im

disappointed in that. Brown/Davis should be gone immediately in favor of Murton.

Making Sense

The entire trade only really makes sense to me if you look at it from the assumption that the A’s were going to take whatever they could get for Harden when he was healthy and then get the hell out of Dodge.

The problem with this trade is they didn’t even get ONE top five prospect from the Cubs. Giving up two serviceable pitcher for a bunch of projected mediocrity is not a good return.

This reeks of the Hudson trade—the A’s were not dealing from a position of strength and it shows.

Threepwood XX - July 8, 2008 reply

Absolutely, the timing is odd

Why not wait and see if the other teams up their offer?? I think they were trying to sell high with Rich.

(I would have at least had him pitch this weekend vs. Angels at home – might have brought in a big crowd)

I think you are right. We could have got more for Harden.

How is the timing odd?

Harden has made 9 consecutive starts. That’s a minor miracle right there. I looked very, very hittable in his last 2 starts ( Angels, White Sox).... If anything, the timing looks to be perfect. It was obvious that Beane told Geren to limit Harden’s pitch count during the last couple of weeks. They didn’t want to ruin Harden’s trade value.

I just don’t get what people expect around here. Harden is a Huge, Huge Injury Risk… and every single GM knows it.

Colorado Fan - July 9, 2008 reply

Vitters

I think if a Vitters level prospect was included people would feel better around here.

The problem is we got a bunch of mediocre prospects who might not even be able to compete for a spot on the team in a year or two. There really is no high upside centerpiece to this trade, and a lot of the fans who supported the Haren and Swisher trades feel let down.

I personally would have felt much better about this trade if the only return we had gotten was just Vitters/Gallagher rather then three mediocre prospects and a high risk catcher. The farm system is rebuilt, and Beane needs to be going after quality players rather then league average quantity at this point. He really missed a chance to pivot and start to fill the holes remaining in the system.

Threepwood XX - July 9, 2008 reply

Also

I really feel like the A’s should be concentrating on high upside players for the farm at this point. I understand the importance of your 700ops guys like Aaron Cunningham when you are rebuilding a farm system, but now that the system is standing on it’s own two feet, Beane should be concentrating on quality over quantity, not the other way around.

And my final point to be lost in the barrage of posts over the next few days—stocking a team by developing and trading pitching does you no good IF YOU DONT TRADE FOR ANY GOOD HITTERS! Just look at the Giants if you want proof…

Threepwood XX - July 8, 2008 reply

the A's have a ton of OF depth after this trade

Yeah... a little TOO much OF depth...

Seems more like OF breadth.

It's like Beane's playing 3 Outfielder Monte

“Keep yer eye on the major league quality hitta, watch it now, watch it now.”

(Shabbily-dressed Bill Bavasi): “Uh… uh… that one!”

“Sorry, kid, ya got Danny Putnam.”

not a diagnosis any kid wants to hear

Hey, Putnam does have an .853 OPS at Sacramento

thejd44 - July 9, 2008 reply

Seems more like morning breadth

Signing Duke. to an extension would be a good move

for the team on the field and for morale.

HE has been great. Its a real shame things didn’t work out differently (injuries, etc.) because guys like him deserve to be in the playoffs this season.

I am proud of the team for going out and winning on a day in which the team can’t feel to happy about their chances for the rest of the season.

All that being said – Lets keep winning!!!

(By the way what if we keep it winning despite the loss of Rich??) Hope Springs eternal!!

Well...At least four of five days,

the impact of the trade will be that Murton is in the lineup and Gaudin is not available not to pitch. And if Harden should go on the DL, then we’ll also enjoy Gallagher as an upgrade from a “not stretched out Gaudin” or Braden.

Did anyone else hear during Right Off The Bat

Marty doing an ad for Black Angus and improvising, after reading a line of copy about how long the meat was aged:
“That’s right folks, you could say this meat has been on the disabled list for 21 days.”
This did not make me want to patronize my local Black Angus.

Englishmajor - July 8, 2008 reply

Did the ads read by Rich Harden

make you want to patronize Sutter Health?

New tagline

Hey, at least they didn't claim the meat in the Rule 5 Draft

I fell asleep last night

thinking about Patton Oswalt’s rant about Black Angus.

Leopold Bloom - July 9, 2008 reply

Just-in-credible

I’m still a little shell-shocked by the deal; as a Harden fan and a Cubs fan (and I’m very much a fan of both) I just hope he somehow manages to stay healthy for once. As an A’s fan, I’m … hoping Beane knows something I don’t. I had high hopes for Matt Murton for a couple of years, but at age 26, it’s looking like his true level of ability is that of a league-average hitter. I’ve heard good things about Eric Patterson’s promise (his big-league experience is too short to mean anything yet) but don’t know much about him.

But as a Duchscherer fan (and I’ve been following him and loving his pitching since he was a Rivercat) I was absolutely thrilled with that last strike in his first shutout of (hopefully!) many, many more with the A’s!

Loon from Left - July 8, 2008 reply

I wonder if Murton wasn't just mishandled

He seems like a guy who was pegged as a platoon player when he really wasn’t, and didn’t get enough playing time, leading to worse stats, leading to less playing time, leading to worse stats…I’d like to see what he could do as an everyday player – the guy does have a career OPS right around .800 and his home/road splits are nearly identical so it’s just not a Wrigley Field thing.

Well

he was the proverbial “change of scenery” guy, right? Time will tell.

I hope you're right...

...and heaven knows the Cubs have mishandled their players often enough. Also, rather than league average, I should have said league average for his position, and on the other side of the ball, I know I’d rather see him patrolling left field than Cust. If Rich (and Duke!) can stay healthy, and Murton shines when the A’s play him properly … and at least one or two the other new A’s pan out … I’ll like this trade for both clubs.

Now if only the Slegna would fall back to their pythag!

Loon from Left - July 8, 2008 reply

It sure seems like we could have gotten Murton for less

I feel like we could have gotten Murton for one middle reliever, say Andrew Brown or Santiago Casilla, or better yet Keith Foulke or Allen Embree.

connie mack - July 8, 2008 reply

Hurray!

I’ve now caught up on reading all the trade threads. And it’s not even midnight yet!

Maybe the Yankees will take Emil Brown now

with Johnny Damon out, Brown would be okay in Left Field for a month.

connie mack - July 8, 2008 reply

This trade sucks!

It’s F’d up that the A’s would trade Hardin in the middle of the year when the A’s are still in the running for a playoff spot. Why not take a chance and trade him at the end of the year. But I’ll accept that it is reasonable to trade Hardin. But why Gaudin too? And what to the A’s get: basically garbage. Is SG that much of an outstanding prospect? NO!

I’m also getting sick of the A’s trading players that still are within their sixth year. Now the A’s are trading players 3 or 4 years into their major league careers. Are the A’s that F’ing cheap that they only want players that are making under a million? I understand that Oakland is too poor to ever resign a player after their sixth year unless thay are journeymen, but now it’s under four or five years. Let’s get the most out of these players for the full six years.

Again the A’s sign a big 16 year old prospect for 4.25 million and it seems the cheapos want to get back some of that money by dumping Hardin’s relatively measley 4.25 million dollar contract.

DD666 - July 9, 2008 reply

Who is this "Hardin" guy?

Syphon - July 9, 2008 reply

The A's traded him to the soon-to-be-no-longer-Supersonics

PaulThomas - July 9, 2008 reply

You do realize the A's can't trade players they DON'T control, right?

PaulThomas - July 9, 2008 reply

There goes my "Vlad to the Yankees, A's get ARod" trade idea...

thejd44 - July 9, 2008 reply

I love Duke.

I have loved the Duke for many years. I’ve been rooting for him to start since he was put in the ‘pen. I want to see him extended for a bazillion years, and lead us to glory through his brain in a jar in 2085.

Realistically, his value is going to be crazy sweet by the end of the season and Billy’s going to ship him out the door to start the next motley young generation.

Because we don’t get to have nice things.

"Because we don’t get to have nice things."

:-(

day-to-day - July 9, 2008 reply

Main reaction to the deal

Rich Harden doesn’t have very much trade value.

I figured as much, but the fact that we had to include Gaudin in the deal just because Harden is made of glass just clinches it. We got a cheap, young pitcher with an apparently good fastball and a bunch of roster filler, as near as I can tell.

I’d like to say this is a case of selling high. But this isn’t exactly a high return, and it sounds like teams weren’t exactly beating down Beane’s door.

I’ve been in the realist camp about the A’s, but this trade leaves me cold.

bear88 - July 9, 2008 reply

Harden Trade...

Ok, I’ve been able to sleep on this trade now….I’m still not happy…BUT….I’m willing to see if there’s something there that we don’t know about (although this does remind me the Hudson for Meyer and Thomas trade)....

But, what if Billy Beane pulled off this deal for another deal? Meaning, what if that was done in order to get Matt Holliday?? I know its a long shot, VERY VERY long shot, but the Rockies would want young players, and a young guy like Gallagher might be able to get it done…

BB won’t give up CarGon, which he shouldn’t, but if he can trade Gallagher, Buck and another player, who knows, maybe they could get Holliday.

I know it’s wishful thinking, but I’m allowed to have dreams too….

Let’s Go A’s…

By the Way….Great game by The Duke of Oakland last night…and it was nice that I could finally get to bed at 11:55pm EST last night….

i dont see how Holliday makes any sense for the A's

we’d be giving up prospects to get a guy for a year and half (before Boras dumps a truckload of gold on his lap).
sure, he’d be an upgrade as a hitter, but the idea of another corner outfielder at this point doesn’t really excite me.

How Doesn't Holliday make sense??

Holliday is an upgrade over all of their outfielders. Wouldn’t it be nice to have Holliday in left, CarGon in center and Sweeney in right?? The A’s would even be able to put together a pretty good lineup once Thomas gets back.

Or would you rather stick with Emil Brown?

I understand that the A’s wouldn’t be able to retain Holliday after next season, but so what? I like to try to win it now. They still have a shot. I truly believe that.

And also, the A’s now have a decent number of pitching talent in the minors.

I think Murton is our "Bat in Left"

And he’s a huge upgrade there (he has a platoonish split .770/.880, but he’s one of our top 3 hitters, so I think he plays every day)

I think if there’s another trade its for a near-ready 3B prospect. That’s probably our biggest weakness going forward (since Chavez may never get “right”)

Funny, because Murton isn't even reporting to Oakland from what I've heard.

Like when Beane was on the radio yesterday…

My assumption is that it's only because he's trying to shop Emil

I pray I’m right, because if Murton stays in Sac while DFA plays, I may have to DFA DFA myself.

We're probably going to still have Emil in 2010.

He’ll be like the Rincon of the outfield.

Nightmare fuel

Yikes, to think that I had forgotten about Rincon, and now I’m reminded of being at the game in 04(?) where our playoff hopes were officially snuffed out..

sec119 - July 9, 2008 reply

where we differ in opinion

is where you say: “the A’s wouldn’t be able to retain Holliday after next season, but so what? I like to try to win now.”

So what? We’ve just spent half a year acquiring talent that will be around for the long haul, and we are finally getting to the point that (in a few seasons) I could see us in a position where acquiring a free agent or 2 would make sense.
But unloading that talent to rent a guy for just a year and half, when we have very little hope to retain him afterward, just doesn’t make sense.

+1!

mrod - July 9, 2008 reply

I understand where you're coming from...

But are any of these guys can’t miss prospects?

I’m sorry, but I’ve always been one who says you go out and get the proven commodity, even if its for a short period of time. I’m tired of basking in just making the playoffs, or coming close to the playoffs…are any of these prospects really good enough to bring the A’s a World Series in the next 5 years? Doesn’t seem like any of the positional players in the minors are going to be better than a Matt Holliday, who can carry a team thru the playoffs.

And again, now that the A’s have restocked their farm system with pitchers, they can become expendable, especially if they can go ahead and resign Duke to a 3 year deal.

Last thing...I promise

I also know they aren’t going to go out to get Holliday….I know that’s out of the question, but I would be in favor of it because this team could have a magical run, I believe that, but a player like Holliday could push them to having that real magical season….

Isn’t that why we are fans? Isn’t that why we invest our time and money? I want to see them go for it…

It’s like with the NJ Nets…I hate the fact that they traded Richard Jefferson for them banking on getting LeBron in 2010. What if it doesn’t happen. Then you just wasted away 2 seasons. That is in essense what the A’s could be doing by banking on all these prospects. They have a chance to make the playoffs, so go for it.

That’s just me. I appologize for the ramblings, I’m just frustrated right now

Holliday outside of Colorado would just be "good" and not a superstar.

id put him at

“pretty good”. but now im just splitting hairs.

.790 career OPS on the road.

Take that and put it into the Coliseum, and I just don’t see it being worth the amount of specs that would be needed to get him.

Yeah, but improving every year

And I’d prefer Bay to Holliday anyway

Using road numbers are a really bad way to evaluate Colorado hitters. It’s best to use standard translations which still make Holliday a great player.

Andrew - July 9, 2008 reply

it seems like

you are suggesting we spin the Harden-haul for Holliday? if that’s the case, you are getting your frustrations mixed up.

I understand your frustration with what we got for Harden. I think many of us overestimated what an oft-injured potential superstar could bring.

For Holliday, again, I’ll say: I dont think the A’s have the luxury of trading away top prospects (because that is what it would take, see Taj’s comment), and by extension I dont think our acquisitions from the Cubs are even enough to get him.
If the A’s are going to acquire a veteran impact bat in the next couple years, I see it coming through free agency, or trading if enough of our signings/acquisitions work out. At this point, trading away top-shelf prospects doesn’t make sense to me.
but, then, I thought we’d get more for Harden. I’m no GM.

All I'm saying is...

I would love for that to happen, but I’m realistic and I know something like that won’t happen…

I would like to have Jason Bay too, but that’s not happening either…

The A’s will have to try to win it with the group they have now, with maybe a marginal trade happening by the end of the month, but I’m realistic they won’t be trading for an impact player this year

After thinking about the move for a while, I don’t hate it. If you assume that Harden is going down soon, the A’s got a guy that’s younger, has less service time and is probably just as good as Gaudin, to go along with a couple decent bench players.

If Harden somehow stays healthy the next couple years then yeah, bad move, but in the very likely event Harden gets hurt, the A’s win this trade.

Andrew - July 9, 2008 reply

yes, it does break down to: how long will Harden stay healthy

as dave cameron’s numbers show:
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2008/7/8/567382/rich-harden-cubs#7251009

if you give Harden 100 innings a year (plus his replacement for the remainder), and Gallagher 200 innings a year, the difference is 1 Win.

Obviously, it comes down to your estimate of how many innings Harden has in him (Gallagher too).

There are lots of neat theories being floated around right now that Beane pulled the trigger because Harden has had some warning signs recently (decreased velocity in a game, using the phrase “tired-arm” in an interview) etc. The Cubs have been scouting him hard too, so I dont think the guy’s going to fall off a cliff tomorrow… but maybe in a week or two.

but,
it’s not our problem anymore!!!!!!! (silver lining to the fact we cant watch him twirl for us now and again)

Harden

Well the A’s unloaded another ace, however, this one might turn out to be a good trade for us considering Harden’s six stints on the DL over the past three seasons. The Cubs felt obligated to make a move to counter Sabathia and we got a pretty good young pitcher in Gallagher.

Sports Picks

Sports Picks - July 9, 2008 reply

Minor trade idea

Don’t laugh. I know Beane/Forst pulls rabbits (or perhaps other rodents) out of hats from time to time, and this one is most likely not on anyone’s radar.

But should the A’s consider, if there’s no movement coming up on July 31st, attempting to trade a couple of minor league guys who are low on the depth chart for Rich Aurelia? Mostly it would be a salary dump by the Giants, and the A’s would pick up a replacement for Jack Hannahan who can also, in a pinch, play all infield positions, and who, in his dotage, is a much better hitter. I’m not advocating giving up anyone who would definitely make it to the big league club, but maybe someone who, given the paucity in the Giants’ system, could wind up being a dark horse over there.

richwol1 - July 9, 2008 reply

This doesn't make sense if the A's aren't going anywhere this year

And if they are, Casey Blake would be a better guy to go after.

thejd44 - July 9, 2008 reply

If the A's aren't going anywhere

they still need to play out the string and at least attempt to win as many games as possible, play spoiler if possible, and give people some reason to go to the ballpark.

I’d agree that Blake is a better choice, but I’d guess Cleveland might ask for real talent in return. I see absolutely no point, particularly if Chavez is either out or semi-hobbled for the rest of 2008, in letting Jack Hannahan play out the string. The guy has no future as big league ballplayer and there’s no one in the A’s organization ready to step in should Chavez be gone. The A’s MUST deal for someone in the off-season anyway.

richwol1 - July 9, 2008 reply

Only if we time travel and get Aurilia from, like, five or six years ago.

He has no range left.

Aurilia could go 4 for 4 with two doubles,

and I wouldn’t be impressed.

So...

You’d rather have Hannahan go 0 for 4.

richwol1 - July 9, 2008 reply

and get Bonds to bat behind him

monkeyball - July 9, 2008 reply

Crazy idea

Maybe Beane can ship Eric Patterson to Cincinnati and he can get one of the white guys Dusty hates playing so much. Hmm.

thejd44 - July 9, 2008 reply

Wouldn't it have been nice if...

The A’s held onto Milton Bradley and worked out a deal for Josh Hamilton, instead of the Rangers…

The What Ifs are always fun to play….

Bradley has played less games than Crosby, and only has 4 homers away from Arlington, he is

having a good year, but a lot seems to be park inflated, plus he is only playing DH, because if he has to run in the outfield, he will land on the dl again.

theblackpearl - July 9, 2008 reply

and bradley would still be abetter option than cust at dh

Trading question on ESPN to Phillips on Harden Trade

Michael (Evansville, IN): Jason Stark’s article today I think quoted another GM as saying that Beane’s decision to deal Harden right now raises serious “red flags” about Harden’s health. Mr. Phillips, as a former GM, can you truly have insider medical information that you withhold from the team you are trading with? If such withholding ever were to made public, how would a GM who did this be viewed (credibility-wise & ethically)?

Steve Phillips: (1:27 PM ET ) Typically, what happens in trades is that the clubs exchange medical information. One team's doctor is given permission to talk to another team's doctor about the players. Clubs exchange medical reports to gain a comfort level. Deals can be contingent upon a physical. There have been times where a GM has not fully disclosed a player's health status, and that burns his relationship with the other team, and possibly with MOST other teams. The rules are clear: it's buyer beware, so there is no recourse legislated if you feel as though you have been duped. I'm not surprised at the moves from Beane's perspective. I have seen it before. Beane traded me Kenny Rogers in 1999, even when his team was competing for a playoff spot. He then turned around to acquire Kevin Appier to allow his team to continue to compete.I'm not sure that is the case here, but as the GM of a small-market team, Beane has to be creative and sometimes take a half step back to take one step forward. Harden is a risk, but he would not be less of a risk on July 31 than he is today.

God I hate that gray stripe

Steve Phillips: (1:27 PM ET ) Typically, what happens in trades is that the clubs exchange medical information. One team’s doctor is given permission to talk to another team’s doctor about the players. Clubs exchange medical reports to gain a comfort level. Deals can be contingent upon a physical. There have been times where a GM has not fully disclosed a player’s health status, and that burns his relationship with the other team, and possibly with MOST other teams. The rules are clear: it’s buyer beware, so there is no recourse legislated if you feel as though you have been duped. I’m not surprised at the moves from Beane’s perspective. I have seen it before. Beane traded me Kenny Rogers in 1999, even when his team was competing for a playoff spot. He then turned around to acquire Kevin Appier to allow his team to continue to compete.I’m not sure that is the case here, but as the GM of a small-market team, Beane has to be creative and sometimes take a half step back to take one step forward. Harden is a risk, but he would not be less of a risk on July 31 than he is today.

I laughed at this part

Beane traded me Kenny Rogers in 1999, even when his team was competing for a playoff spot. He then turned around to acquire Kevin Appier to allow his team to continue to compete

Why? It's true

I know

I hope that somehow happens this time.

I hope Harden does well for them. I didn’t want to see him go but I am thinking the medical guru’s said, get rid of him while you can

Overview from last night's game

I watched the game all over again on my DVR because I could not sleep due to the heat!

Duke was absolutley masterful! Almost every single batter started with a called 1st strike. He was always in the strike zone. I believe he had one, maybe two full counts all evening. No walks. 4 k’s. 2 hits. A couple of nice plays by Duke as well with the glove. Retired the last 12 batters in a row! Seattle’s best chance to score came on Sexon’s leadoff double in the 6th and that was it for the Mariners. Nada! Zilch! Zero!

Definitely a very Maddux type of performance and even Shooty Babbit mentioned that during the post-game show. M. Urban said “That was the best pitching performance I’ve see all year”.. Hands down, it was the definitely the best performance by Duke and I would say the effort against the Red Sox was a very close second.

Overall, I’m incredibly grateful to have Justin D. as the current ace of this staff. I hope Billy Beane is smart enough to lock him up for the foreseeable future…..he deserves it.

And I’m proud to have Duke’s jersey on every time I go to an A’s game…......go A’s!

mrod - July 9, 2008 reply

I thought his start against the Giants was the other "best start"

But there have been so many… :-}

Not as Rich now but we still have Duchscherer

Hate to be a stick in the mud, and it’s not just this trade. .... Maybe this one had to be made at this time, but it’s the overall pattern with Billy Beane that gives me pause.
Does he ever finish the job, or are we as A’s fans eternally destined to be always on the journey but never arriving at the desitination, taking yet another detour so we MIGHT, MIGHT get close three, four, five more years down the line?
Just as Bill Murray keeps hearing that Sonny and Cher song on the radio at 6 in the morning in “Groundhog Day’,’ I as an A’s fan keep hearing the late John Lennon’s “Starting Over’’ in my brain every time Billy trades away another valued player. Somewhere down the road, I would like Billy to have the courage publicly to be ``The Man From La Mancha” and “Dream the Impossible Dream,” stick with his guns, develop and keep great team players who are WINNERS, who will find a way to get’er done through thick or thin.
I think Duke’s one of those players, by golly, with True Grit, but I’m not confident he won’t be traded away as well somewhere down the line.
Rich Harden being traded is a sad day to me. I hate to see a player traded who still has a chance to be a great player. If he goes on to be the next Sandy Koufax or Bob Gibson for the Cubs, there will be a sense of loss of what might have been with the A’s. The odds, given Rich’s injury history, are long that that will be the case, in which case I will be sad for Rich.

nativetexanasfan - July 9, 2008 reply

Nico

Well said

Just another entry in the improbable season of "relentless contention against all reasonable odds" by your 2008 Oakland A’s – a team that keeps subtracting key pieces and adding to its winning percentage.

In Billy We Trust. The 08 A’s should not be doing this, but each night i find myself expecting to win. Its been a fun ride so far

KCB58 - July 9, 2008 reply

Thanks - I agree, it's been more funner than I expected.