Barry Zito isn't the only member of the Big 3 who is finding the number seven to be less than lucky.
In his first start of 2006, Tim Hudson was staked to a seven-run lead (8-1) after 4 innings but could not retire a hitter in the 5th before being yanked. Today, the Giants scored 7 runs before Huddy got the second out of the 2nd inning. Sound familiar? His fastball velocity, incidentally, has been 91-92 on the cutter and 93-95 on the two-seamer, so it's not a Loaiza "where's the velocity?" thing.
Feel free to use this thread to talk about why you think Huddy has struggled so much his first two starts, and how you see his career going in 2006-2008. Will he be an "ace"? Will he outpitch Zito? Will he outpitch Dan Haren? Joe Blanton? Dan Meyer?
0 recs | 50 comments
Huddy
Usually his problem isn't stuff it's just that he gets injured a lot with muscle pulls and the like.I always thought that he was a little overrated, I wasn't that sad to see him go. As long as his velocity is still there this is probably just him getting off to a slow start, and not really something to worry about.
After watching last night's game I find it hard to believe anyone can outpitch Joe Blanton.
Chavez4Prez - April 8, 2006
joe blanton cy young
over the past 2 years when the a's score more then a run he is 13-1, ya and the a's have a helluv a lineup this season.greekpride08 @ Athletics Nation - April 8, 2006
I think the A's got his best years
OaklandSi - April 8, 2006
Timely post on Huddie, etc.. You must be psychic
I was just about to post a comment on Hudson's struggles and how his ERA looks to be going higher than Zito's after today's showing. His speed seems to be there but his pitches must be too predictable since the Giants are hitting him up and down the lineup.Again, at this stage, I'll take Harden, Haren & Blanton over Huddie, Mulder & Zito.
Vegas Ace - April 8, 2006
Thanx Huddy for killing a nice parlay...
that I had goingsmith1051 - April 8, 2006
First pitch swings
The Giants are crushing the first pitch they see, which always seemed to hurt Huddy's gameplan. (vs. Boston 2004) He is best when he gets ahead of a batter and they subsequently chase the splitter.I agree that the A's had his best years (2002, 2003). He will continue to be good, but no longer an ace. Haren, Blanton, and Harden will all do better in 2006 IMO.
FireballerHARDEN - April 8, 2006
Mechanics
This is Huddys problem. It always has been, but he was younger with the A's and his body could bounce back faster from his delivery. He started getting hurt his last two seasons in Oakland and Beane saw the writing on the wall. He is still a very good pitcher, but he will fight off injury for the rest of his career unless he gives up the "bulldog" mentality of overpowering hitters and gets more creative. He's got a great mentor in Smoltz. Too bad Maddux is gone, Huddy could have learned a lot from him. Kerry Wood needs to pick Maddux's brain because he's in the same position as Huddy. Their bodies aren't built to hold up the power that they think they still possess.haren4prez - April 8, 2006
good points
wonder if the pitching coaches for the Braves and Cubs have figured this outOaklandSi - April 8, 2006
A's staff also plays half of their games in a much
more forgiving ballpark.haren4prez - April 8, 2006
is that so?
i believe both the braves and the a's are considered to have neutral parks.and of course the a's are in the AL, which has the DH and is generally considered to be stronger.
xbhaskarx - April 8, 2006
and of course
his two starts this year have been @LAD and @SF, and neither of those are exactly hitters parks.xbhaskarx - April 8, 2006
I think that Oakland is
way more forgiving to pitchers than Atlanta is based on foul territory alone. We can't put everything behind the ballparks, there are a lot more variables there. Some ballparks are canyons and some are bandboxes. I do believe that Oakland did help to keep Huddy's era down. It was also mentioned that he had a stellar defense behind him. I'm not giving up on him for the season, but I do believe his dominating years are behind him unless he starts to get more creative on the mound.haren4prez - April 8, 2006
Like a lot of good pitchers,
if you want to beat him, get to him early, but if he gets some early runs and gets out of the first few innings, Huddy can still be tough. I do agree that the injury situation could plague him for years, unless he figures out a way to get by more on guile than guts.sslinger - April 8, 2006
Remember when Jeter hit .190 in April?
And everyone started writing his eulogy? Well, I guess we forgot how that turned out. Or when Pedro got lit up on opening day two years ago and everyone said it was the end of the Pedro era? Or when everyone last year posted ten times a day about what a mistake it was to keep Chavez? How many games does it take for us to forget that Tim Hudson is a very good baseball player and that Marco Scutaro is not? Four or five, usually.Wait until Huddy has another bad outing or four before we write him off as washed up.
Nick86 - April 8, 2006
Not saying he's washed up
just pointing out that he might not be elite as long as he tries to work out of jams by overpowering hitters. He's still a VERY good pitcher, but the question was if he is going to be as effective as our young staff this year, and that was what was being addressed. He's far from washed up, but with his injury track record over the last few years and the fact that he doesn't have 25 yards of foul territory on either side of the diamond anymore might lead one to believe that his "elite" type years might be behind him. But hey, I'll tip my hat to you in October when Huddy has 22 wins and a Cy Young under his arm.haren4prez - April 8, 2006
Nobody's writing him off, Nick86,
and I'm certainly not when I ask whether people think he'll be an ace, a good pitcher, or an ok pitcher for the next 3 years. Ace is a perfectly good answer. BUT...he hasn't had an ace year for a while (largely due to injuries) and so while he was one of my favorite A's in the 2000s era (and I still basically root for him and Tejada), he is not on a good trend the past 2+ seasons.My take is that he has really suffered for throwing the splitter so much less and the cutter so much more--since he started doing that, his K/9IP numbers have dropped a lot, and with it his overall success has dropped a notch as well.
My theory: the splitter was harder on his oblique than the cutter is (don't know if it should be), and so he has adjusted his repertoire to try to stay healthier--but without great results in either the stat or the health department. Just a theory, though.
Nico - April 8, 2006
Are the Giants really this good??
Sub-question: Is there anyone in the National League that can compete with the AL?? I mean, I understand the Cardinals argument, but they did not stack up against Boston in '04 (and their pitching is not as good this year). They lost to Houston last year in the ALCS, who, in turn, lost to Chicago in quick fashion in the WS '05 (and lost Clemens in the offseason).I guess the Giants are in a spot where they have to hope their young pitchers continue to go as well as they have, and get good starts from Schmidt and Morris. Can't believe they finally figured out the importance of pitching. Too bad Barry is old enough that it may be too late. Even more reason to love the situation in Oakland, even though we aren't competing in the NL West.
mattclif - April 8, 2006
The years
Hudson had in Oakland were incredible and it would be hard for any pitcher to top the numbers he put up 92-39. He gave the team some much needed grit and determination. I still find it hard to believe that Miggy and him could not win a championship. haren4prez has it right. Hudson is just not big enough to take the wear and tear on his body to be a power pitcher. I hope Hudson figures out how to win 300 games. He was a joy to watch in Oakland and I will always root for him except aganist the A's.natsirt - April 8, 2006
Loved
the Et Tu, Damon banner in the outfield for Tuesday's game, BTW.sslinger - April 8, 2006
Huddy is a bulldog
All things being equal (health and salary) I would take him over any pitcher on the A's except maybe Harden.He's my favorite all-time A's pitcher because I know that when he was on the mound, he wanted to win more than anyone else in the stadium.
But all things aren't equal. He has injury issues and makes a lot of $. So I'm okay with him being on another team...
signmebilly - April 8, 2006
Poor Huddy. :-(
Tim Hudson is my all-time favorite Athletic other than Rickey, and seeing this is just breaking my heart. :-( That man provided some extraordinary games in the green-and-gold. He's got the soul of a power pitcher, ain't right that his body has dealt him such a poor hand.Definitely agree with Fireballer about how the Giants are jumping on him early in the ABs -- without getting to really use that splitter to mess with 'em, he's gonna get mauled.
And watching him... honestly, I'm confused. The results are definitely one of those 'pre-DL trip' starts of his, and the BB/K for the game seem to be the same, but there's nothing in watching him pitch that really looks like his oblique (if nothing else, at least it's normally damn apparently when he's about to go on the DL). Hmm.
I believe in Tim Hudson. I don't know if I could stop, even if I wanted to.
Kyli - April 8, 2006
bulldog?
i've been watching and commenting on his rather unimpressive outing already:http://www.athleticsnation.com/comments/2006/4/8/124552/7906/24#24
huddy gave up 8 runs in 4 innings today and his ERA only went up from 11.25 to 12.38...
xbhaskarx - April 8, 2006
That's the kind of consistency I want...
in my starter :-).I think Huddy will be fine, if he can ever figure out how to stay healthy. We need to wait about three more weeks until we can start drawing some decent conclusions on how guys like Huddy (and Zito, Loaiza, etc.) will do this year.
There's a perception problem with him right now. The hype for him as part of the "Big Three" got so intense, it made him sound like an even better pitcher than the extremely good one he is. There's a distinction between Tim Hudson-good and Pedro-good. He was never the latter, even in Oakland, but was still better than 90% of the league. And if he can stay healthy, he could be again.
jeepers - April 8, 2006
A large part of Hudson's value
was not only his quality pitching, but the lots and lots of quality pitching. His economy with his pitches was legendary, averaging about 14.5 pitches per inning. From 2001-2003 he had a 3.02 ERA and ate between 235-240 innings each year. He also had the pleasure of pitching in front of some of the best infield defenses of the league.How many pitchers pitched more innings than Huddy between 2001 and 2003? Try zero. More than Bartolo, Buehrle, Vazquez, Schilling, and - yes - the rubber-armed Livan Hernandez.
If Hudson is now a 3.50 ERA pitcher, he would still have a ton of value if he were still a 240-inning starter. I think those days are over, and Hudson will put up "only" around 200 innings in his healthiest years. This doesn't make him a bad pitcher, but with a low K-rate and shaky health, Billy Beane ultimately sold "high" on Hudson.
(He also bought "high" on Cruz, Meyer, and Thomas, but that's another story altogether.)
salb918 - April 8, 2006
(Disclaimer:
Tim Hudson is my second favorite Athletic of the Beane era, behind Scott Hatteberg.)salb918 - April 8, 2006
Well said salb918
haren4prez - April 8, 2006
the hudson trade
is looking less terrible all the time.- it seems like thomas may never contribute for the mlb club.
- cruz sucked, and then got us halsey. he isn't that impressive, but it's still something.
- meyer may still amount to something if he's recovered. we'll see.
but huddy was paid a lot more than those three combined last year, so at the very least we got some money.we would have had huddy for one more year, and saarloos did just fine in his spot in the rotation last year (haren replaced mulder, blanton was here either way).
whether or not saarloos got lucky, the fact is huddy wasn't a whole lot better than saarloos.
as of now, the worst beane trade may once again be jeremy bonderman....
xbhaskarx - April 8, 2006
No Doubt!
haren4prez - April 8, 2006
Lilly
We did get Lilly in that trade. I remember that guy making a very meaningful contribution while he was in Oakland. If it hadn't been for some of the worst baserunning in post season history Lilly would be emembered quite fondly for leading the A's past the Red Sox with a sensational Game 3 pitching performance in 2003. Who knows how far they would have gone that year.Larry E - April 8, 2006
no question
without lilly, we don't make the playoffs that year, plus he pitched well against the red sox.but bonderman is bonderman.
replace 1-2 other prospects instead of him in that trade, and imagine what the rotation would be like with bonderman instead of 7 million dollar man loaiza...
xbhaskarx - April 8, 2006
BTW I HATE Gnat fans
giving Bonds a standing O everytime he steps to the plate or takes the field? BARF!haren4prez - April 8, 2006
I'm wondering how long it will take
before he heads to the DL with another oblique problem.To me, Hudson is still a quality pitcher. But he's having that age-old problem for sinker ballers in that his pitchers are getting too high. Plus, I'm not sure whether anyone has realized this, but players are taking a patient approach on the splitter. If Huddy isn't getting people to fruitlessly swing at the split as it drops off the table, he's going to get hammered. If I remember correctly, in 2003 against Anaheim, they had figured it out and laid off his splitter and drew more walks against him than they were accustomed to taking.
As for what I expect him to be...I expect him to be a good pitcher who will most certainly be much better this year. I wouldn't be surprised if he finishes the year 13-10 with a 3.8-3.90 ERA with 190 IP.
Tyler Bleszinski - April 8, 2006
Agree, Blez, but also
per my comment above, Huddy doesn't throw the splitter as much anymore, and since he started throwing the cutter more and the splitter less, his overall effectiveness has not improved and his health has not improved, while his K/9IP rate has dropped substantially.He has the tools (power sinker, changeup, command) to adjust to the adjustments, yet lately his command and his cutter--which Huddy may have fallen in love with more than warranted--have been betraying him more and more.
Nico - April 8, 2006
i think
huddy's future may be as a closer. he can crank it to 95 when he wants, and back that up with 1 or 2 quality out pitches(whatever's working best that day), keeps the ball in the park, gets alot of ground balls. plus he's just got that mean ass "i'm gonna win and you're gonna lose" thing going on, which is essential for a good closer.Backspin - April 8, 2006
Hey, it's obvious Beane saw something special...
in Harden, Blanton, Meyer, and Haren enough to let Huddy and Mulder go. These guys are going to be better than the first Big 3 could have ever been. I loved Hudson's grit and determination, but he is not as smart as Harden or as crafty. Just my opinion. BTW anybody shlepping up to Seattle on Sunday?A'sfansince1970 - April 8, 2006
If he started using
the splitter more again, I think Huddy as a closer could be a great idea. No, he doesn't have a classic closer's repertoire. But he has Bob Wickman's mentality, and twice the stuff. If the oblique would respond better to 1 inning stints 4 times/week than to 100 pitches every 5 days, I think it's a very smart idea.Nico - April 8, 2006
and
since the braves have no closer, it may be something we see after one or two more mid summer oblique strains.Backspin - April 8, 2006
Yup.
Bobby Cox, 2005-06: "Let's see...Danny Kolb, Chris Reitsma, Joey Devine, Oscar Villereal...Huddy? Keep talking, I'm listening."Nico - April 8, 2006
amazingly enough
thats an even scarier series of guys that our rhodes-dotel "experiment." how great is it to not have to worry about the 0th inning for oh, about 5 years?Backspin - April 8, 2006
Or the 9th, even.
Nico - April 8, 2006
dam.n 9
being right next to the 0 key :)Backspin - April 8, 2006
It would be a misallocation
of talent to let Hudson close.But if going to relief is what keeps him healthy -- and I don't think we're anywhere near that point -- I think Hudson would be an awesome bullpen fireman. Bring him in the 6th inning with two on and nobody out, let him go for anywhere between 1 and 3+ innings, and you might just have yourself Goose Gossage v. 2. He'd be twice as valuable as a true closer could ever dream to be.
It's something that I think the Cubs should do with Kerry Wood if it is determined that going to the bully is the only way to keep him healthy.
salb918 - April 8, 2006
The closer that
your description most reminds me of: Rollie Fingers.Nico - April 8, 2006
On the other hand...
Huddy would look awfully ugly with that mustache.JediLeroy, can you superimpose the 'stache on Huddy's face?
salb918 - April 8, 2006
<shrug>
So would Rollie.Nico - April 8, 2006
Oh god.
Was Huddy the one who said he'd love to grow a 'stache like that?AUGH.
Kyli - April 9, 2006
Great thread....
I have the same question of every Hudson start - did he have the splitter tonite? I've always thought it was a matter if he had it that night, rather than did he choose to use it. It can be such a devastating putaway pitch, it's hard to believe that he just puts it on the shelf. He seemed to stop featuring it consistently his last season here.I agree that the book is well known on him. He wants to get ahead and get you to chase the split in the dirt. If you can lay off, it makes him work. But, when the split is good, it just falls off the table - it doesn't seem to matter if guys are looking for it.
One of my favorite memories is of that great game he pitched in Seattle in September of 2000. The A's headed into that series 4 games back, and left just one out. We had a house full of guys all yelling "Throw the Split" every time he got a 2 strike count. And he did.
That led, of course, to that fabulous and glorious last Sunday of the 2000 season....still one of my favorite days, and favorite calls, at the ballpark, "Strike 3 called - the A's win the West!"
BleacherDave - April 8, 2006
I was at the Giants?Braves game today.
I am going tomorrow too. Hudson has had two terrible starts. I am wondering if he has a nagging injury and that might be the problem.BTW...I am so jealous of that park. Everytime I am there it makes me heartsick that we don't have a park like that.
IM4Oakgal - April 8, 2006
On the other hand...
Mulder hit a two-run bomb today.flipgatey3 - April 10, 2006
Hudson
Was the ultimate warrior. Saying that he is not as smart or as crafty as Harden is simply untrue. Harden has better stuff but isn't half the pitcher Hudson was in his A's career so far. Actually, I take that back; he's right on par for injuries.As for Hudson's Braves career...give me Harden all day.
flipgatey3 - April 10, 2006
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